What is Apple's issue?

[Tjj226_Angel]

A lesser evil is still an evil. We're talking an American corporation outsourcing. Not a Chinese corporation natively based in China. Just because it's legal and not worse than China's local norm makes it okay?

 

The difference is labor laws. Consider the arsenic incident in dog food, the sweat shops, and the lack of control and restriction. The entire reason for outsourcing to China is cheap labor and the lack of accountability for poor work conditions. So you're saying that because they intentionally produce these working conditions because of a known "loophole", that it's perfectly fine and nothing is morally wrong with it.

 

I hope you see my point. Here's an analogy to help convey it:

It's comparable to knowing someone on your property is unaware that it's private property (they entered through an area without visible signage or similar)- but you shoot them in the head just because it's legal. When you were perfectly capable of merely informing them that it's private property, you instead used the legal privilege you have to murder them, and intentionally aim for the head instead of even just a limb. And that is perfectly moral, simply because it's legal.

 

This is a giant loophole in morality and reasoning.

 

I am with you on this one.

 

While apple is still at fault for some of the problems in china, the reality of it is, no one should have to work under poor conditions anywhere in the world period. Sorry, but humans are humans are humans and we should all have at least some sort of common humanity towards everyone. I am tired of seeing this world burning to a crisp because someone wants an extra couple of dollars in their pockets. To me china as a whole is just a symbol for how far humanity has sunk. We would all rather pay 40 dollars on a widget that was made by a bunch of over worked people forced into working conditions that actually bring people to suicide than pay 80 dollars for the same widget made by someone who isn't going to get cancer from breathing the air in the manufacturing plant.

 

Worst off all, that same widget will probably still cost 80 dollars just so that the company can keep the extra profit.

 

It is just all around sick. The problem isn't apple, the problem is this F'ed up world, and all the F'ed up people who seem to control it.

[Coors]

I am with you on this one.

 

While apple is still at fault for some of the problems in china, the reality of it is, no one should have to work under poor conditions anywhere in the world period. Sorry, but humans are humans are humans and we should all have at least some sort of common humanity towards everyone. I am tired of seeing this world burning to a crisp because someone wants an extra couple of dollars in their pockets. To me china as a whole is just a symbol for how far humanity has sunk. We would all rather pay 40 dollars on a widget that was made by a bunch of over worked people forced into working conditions that actually bring people to suicide than pay 80 dollars for the same widget made by someone who isn't going to get cancer from breathing the air in the manufacturing plant.

 

Worst off all, that same widget will probably still cost 80 dollars just so that the company can keep the extra profit.

 

It is just all around sick. The problem isn't apple, the problem is this F'ed up world, and all the F'ed up people who seem to control it.

 

Apple is not at fault for China's issues. China is at fault for China's issues.

 

In a perfect world yes...no one would suffer and everyone would have cushy jobs making milk shakes and rainbows. But we don't live in Utopia. So what do you suggest be done to fix China's issues? Why should we take playing Team America World Police to the next level and try and fix economic and humanity issues? Have you seen how our economy is doing lately? We are not the ones to be fixing other countries issues when we have plenty of our own to take care of.

 

Did you read the story I linked? You might think their living conditions are .. But having . is better than having nothing at all.

[Tjj226_Angel]

Apple is not at fault for China's issues. China is at fault for China's issues.

 

In a perfect world yes...no one would suffer and everyone would have cushy jobs making milk shakes and rainbows. But we don't live in Utopia. So what do you suggest be done to fix China's issues? Why should we take playing Team America World Police to the next level and try and fix economic and humanity issues? Have you seen how our economy is doing lately? We are not the ones to be fixing other countries issues when we have plenty of our own to take care of.

 

Did you read the story I linked? You might think their living conditions are .. But having . is better than having nothing at all.

 

Apple knows full well what sort of working conditions those people are under and yet they do nothing. While they make not be a direct cause of the issue, they certainly are responsible for the workers that make apple products.

 

As for fixing china's issues, I have a crap ton of ideas that would work, but they would never work. One such idea would be to stop outsourcing so many jobs so that plants over there aren't crammed simply because companies are putting too high of a demand on plants with too little infrastructure to support such massive undertakings. Another would be stop buying dumb crap. Admittedly the first idea sounds a lot easier than the second.

 

Our economy is the product of a bunch of greedy little idiots who basically changed the rules on the banks which caused billions of dollars in losses that were never losses to begin with an caused so much fear and panic that the rest of america sold all their stocks in a panic and crashed the stock market. After which all he11 broke loose. IMHO America could be helping (along side what should be every other super power country) other countries solve their problems if stupidity, greed, and corruption hadn't done so much damage to begin with, and I think it sucks that we have to put off a better tomorrow simply because we are trying to clean up the aftermath of a bunch of little greedy children in suits.

[Coors]

As for fixing china's issues, I have a crap ton of ideas that would work, but they would never work. One such idea would be to stop outsourcing so many jobs

 

So now they have more unemployed people unable to provide food for their families. How exactly is that solving anything?

[Tjj226_Angel]

So now they have more unemployed people unable to provide food for their families. How exactly is that solving anything?

 

Not necessarily my point. Some of the poor working conditions come from having over crowded factories. Lets say that I own a multi-billion dollar company and you have a manufacturing plant. Now lets say that with maximum staff and maximum productivity you can only make 10 widgets a day. Now lets say I come along and offer you a 1 million dollar contract to buy your widgets, but I want 5 million widgets in a month and you can only make ten a day. Normally you would say there is no way in hell I can get you 5 million widgets, but for what ever reason you decide to agree to the contract. The only way you are even going to come close to 5 million widgets is if you increase your staff. Well if you are running at maximum staffing capabilities already, the only way you would fit more people onto the production line is if you cram them in there like sardines. However, that is not enough. Now that the company is packed to the brim with workers, you are only making 15 widgets a day. So now you need to basically become a slave driver to make sure everyone is working at 100 percent.

 

This cycle goes on forever. Eventually you start sacrificing basic humanism in order to gain more efficiency which is why the situation is the way it is.

 

By reducing outsourcing, we do a couple of things. 1: we get more people employed here, and 2: it alleviates some of the demand companies put on other countries labor systems.

 

Also, I can personally guarantee you that just because a few thousand people don't get jobs at foxcon does not mean that each and every single one of them will end up on the streets. As it already stands 5 percent of the workers quit every single month. If the job market over there were as bad as people claimed, I don't think anybody would be quitting.

[UkJenT]

@Coors, I agree with you. Apple should not be blamed for what happens in those factories. These factories in China are run by Hon Hai Precision Industry Co (Foxconn), a huge Taiwanese electronics manufacturer. Hon Hai doesn't just produce products for Apple. They manufacture products for Dell, HP, Motorola, Nintendo, Sony, Microsoft Xbox, Intel, Nokia and a whole lot of other companies. It's easy to blame Apple for the suicides because that is where Hon Hai makes most of its money, but Apple shouldn't be put to blame. Apple and a whole lot of other companies contract Hon Hai to manufacture their products. Obviously, Hon Hai is following Chinese law or else the PRC would have shut them down a long time ago. If Hon Hai is breaking the law, then the PRC is responsible for creating and passing laws to protect its citizens.

 

@Angel. Stop companies from outsourcing jobs to other countries? What? Do you believe in capitalism or communism? You sound like a commie. (I hope you get the sarcasm.) Yea, that's not going to happen, Angel. We don't live in some fantasy world where everything is perfect in the end. This isn't some Disney movie. This is the real world where money talks.

Edited June 10, 2012 by UkJenT

[Tjj226_Angel]

@Coors, I agree with you. Apple should not be blamed for what happens in those factories. These factories in China are run by Hon Hai Precision Industry Co (Foxconn), a huge Taiwanese electronics manufacturer. Hon Hai doesn't just produce products for Apple. They manufacture products for Dell, HP, Motorola, Nintendo, Sony, Microsoft Xbox, Intel, Nokia and a whole lot of other companies. It's easy to blame Apple for the suicides because that is where Hon Hai makes most of its money, but Apple shouldn't be put to blame. Apple and a whole lot of other companies contract Hon Hai to manufacture their products. Obviously, Hon Hai is following Chinese law or else the PRC would have shut them down a long time ago. If Hon Hai is breaking the law, then the PRC is responsible for creating and passing laws to protect its citizens.

 

@Angel. Stop companies from outsourcing jobs to other countries? What? Do you believe in capitalism or communism? You sound like a commie. (I hope you get the sarcasm.) Yea, that's not going to happen, Angel. We don't live in some fantasy world where everything is perfect in the end. This isn't some Disney movie. This is the real world where money talks.

 

Quite frankly, yes.... my faith in capitalism has been dwindling over the years. In fact, I have yet to see how we ever truly lived in a capitalistic society at all.

 

Hon Hai is following the laws indeed, but to redirect your comment back at you, we do not live in a fantasy world. The PRC piratically has no laws as to the treatment of employees. The PRC is only concerned what is best for themselves and don't give a crap about foxconn employees.

 

Also, I do want to make sure you guys understand. I do hold all those companies responsible for what is going on at foxconn, but only to a certain extent. They are not fully to blame, and I put the most blame on this Hon Hai company just like you. However, to not blame apple, dell and so on is sort of like not blaming the parents when a 6 year old kills a bunch of people. The child which in this case is this Hon Hai company is in part a product of these other companies. Surely not directly, but in part. Apple knows what is going on over there in china and I bet you they don't care because it puts more money in their pockets. To me, knowing something like that is going on, and not doing anything about it means you condone it on some level. If you condone it, you a responsible for it. Even if the responsobility is a slight one.

 

Now I know that argument is not going to fly with anyone at all, so I am just going to give up trying to say anything more then that because it is pointless to argue here.

 

Lastly on a slightly different matter. We do live in a world where a utopia can be built, it is just that no one has the balls or the money to do so.

[Stonerboy779]

TJ have you bothered to look at foxconn properly? They're standards are very high and if they where to just go, it would screw over everyone. Do you realize just how many companies use parts from them. I do believe your audio header on your mobo will have foxconn printed on it... does that mean you will stop using asus mobos?

 

Yeah there where some suicides but considering the company employs enough people to fill a small euopean nation and the fact that the suicide rate of employees is lower than the average in china is less than the average rate of suicide in america how can you judge them on such a small thing blown way out of proportion by media?

 

Also if Apple where to source everything from the states they would fail to meet demand their prices would greatly inflate and I am more than sure they would find a way to squeeze higher margins from saying it was all american.

[Coors]

Lastly on a slightly different matter. We do live in a world where a utopia can be built, it is just that no one has the balls or the money to do so.

 

If there was a real Utopia it would be invaded by a real country and taken over. There will never be a perfect society because people are imperfect.

[UkJenT]

@Stoner and Coors. Agreed. Stoner also knows what he is talking about. The suicide rate at Foxconn is much lower than the national average in China. The suicide rate tends to be much higher in Asian countries: Japan, Taiwan, China, South Korea due to all the pressure they face, especially in school. These kids are in a highly competitive world. From a very young age until they graduate university, they are in school all their lives. I'm not talking about like back in the States where most students are in school from 7 to 4. I'm talking about being in school and then cram school 5 to 7 days a week and from 7AM to 10PM at night. These kids are bombarded with information and drilled on taking standardized tests. All they do is rote-memorization and testing. These are the hallmarks of an Asian education, hence why lots of people commit suicide. I personally know what it's like since I personally see it in my students here in Taiwan. They are exhausted beyond belief. I can't even remember how many times the train has been delayed because a student jumped on the tracks. It's disgusting, but that's the way things are here. It's sad, but no one can change the system except for the people here and quite frankly, most don't want to.

 

 

@Angel. I used to think just like you, Angel. I used to think that everyone could live in peace. That no one would suffer on this planet. Then I grew up and realize it would never happen. People are a-holes. It's part of human nature. Nothing such thing as utopia.

Edited June 10, 2012 by UkJenT

[jdm_freek]

when the ipod first came out apple felt the world should gasp at the wonder they had created

but in all actuality all the did was take an old idea and slap an apple logo on it then overprice the hell out of it

they need to face the facts they are lame outdated and overpriced and suing everyone is a last ditch effort of a dying company

the tech world will be a better place when apple dies

[My_Inner_Fred]

Just so you guys know if you didn't already. Foxconn is a Taiwanese company, they just provide hardware to apple to work with. Not the other way around.