DFI LanParty NF4 Expert - initial impressions

[NEOAethyr]

My impression is that the various BIOSes for the SLI-DR have optimized the heck out of the autorecogoniztion of RAM and other components, and hence people reach good clocks without much fiddling. For the Expert there has been only a fraction of the fine-tuning. I certainly see a quite a few reports that various kinds of RAM run slow in the Expert, at least at autorecognition.

 

Long-term the better power distribution in the Expert should enable it to do overall better than the older boards, especially with power-hungry CPUs like dual-cores.

 

For me, I'd pick the SLI-DR. I think it is questionable whether the Expert will play its advantage before we all move to socket AM2 and DDR2 anyway and in any case, I want to go after a few clocking records this winter.

 

 

I think the m2 is a waste of time myself.

I can allready beat all ddr2 references in everest 2.5 ultimate.

 

With ease, this is on my nf2 btw.

 

I think the only reason why this may be pushed is so amd can have an official bandwith increase, and support "officially" higher memory clocks.

They can't sell official oem computers that run 500mhz on ddr1, it would be to hard on the oems.

 

I think it's a waste of time for an enthusiast(thanks google spell check lol).

 

DDR2 is nothing really, only now supporting 1000mhz, while there has been ddr1 in bga form from sumasung that could do 800mhz long long ago, and not really that expensive.

It's just no one has put these chips on ann actual stick of ram.

 

For pries for instance let us look at a gf4 ti 4600, would would cost you at most $100, that's for 128m of that memory.

That's way over the price it would cost of course but it's the only reference I can really bring up.

 

Now double that, for 256m per stick, that's $200 for a 256m stick of memory that does 800mhx(400 x 2).

 

$400 for 2x256m sticks.

Most people around here pay more then that for memory that does'nt get anything near that.

 

 

I wish some company would do this, put those old bga ddr1 samsung chips on sticks of memory and sell it.

 

Either that or start with te real stuff and skip this ddr2 crap, ie bga ddr3, it's good stuff, it clocks way high and all .

 

Anyways that's my opinion, I think ddr2 is only for the oems really, not really for a oc'er.

You can't just say ddr2 beats all look at the benchs lol, I have and I beat all of them even on this nf2 board.

[Squid1]

Well, the advantage of DDR2 is that AMD uses the same as Intel. It would be very bad if DDR RAM became more expensive because of lower mass production.

 

Also, DDR2 modules can have twice the capacity which might be required during the lifetime of the next platform. Going to 8 RAM slots instead is certainly not doable for enthusiast and gamers boards.

[Torch]

DDR2 is only half DDR1

533mhz DDR2 is 133mhz DDR1

667mhz DDR2 is 333mhz DDR1

[Squid1]

DDR2 is only half DDR1

533mhz DDR2 is 133mhz DDR1

667mhz DDR2 is 333mhz DDR1

 

The speed difference really doesn't matter in practice either way, especially for AMD64 CPUs.

 

Practical considerations like availability of production lines and ease of mainboard layout far overrule the minor speed bump or anti-bump.

[Guest thespin]

DDR2 is only half DDR1

533mhz DDR2 is 133mhz DDR1

667mhz DDR2 is 333mhz DDR1

Say what ? How does that translate to theoretical memory bandwidth on either side ?

[Angry_Games]

I think the m2 is a waste of time myself.

I can allready beat all ddr2 references in everest 2.5 ultimate.

 

you can't beat an AMD64 M2 cpu running DDR2 though (because ya don't have one, and the increased memory bandwidth on the new cpu will trump that of and DDR Athlon64 because the memory controller is designed to be able to have a large enough bus to where once again it cannot really be over-saturated, just like current AMD cpu's...but the memory controllers in the M2's will be much stronger)

 

when everyone can actually get an M2 and test it...then you'll see that you are making a premature statement.

 

Also keep in mind...if the AthlonXP is that great, why did the industry move to Athlon64 with integrated memory controller? Because it is a superior cpu/platform to the outdated AthlonXP with separate memory controller and larger wafer thickness.

 

I'm not trashing AthlonXP's, but there's simply no way they are better than the current generation of cpu's unless you have a 2600Mhz AthlonXP comparing against a lower speed A64...and even then it is still not as good. Neither is the scalability of the XP cpu compared to the A64 and that boils all the way down to integrated memory controller again. Nor is the ease of overclocking, making the cpu's scale up much higher than their rated mfg'ing speeds.

 

I've been testing this stuff since the day I began working for DFI and as each new platform comes into my hands, I see exactly how much better each successive platform is (bugs and all). I've got some pretty intense AthlonXP overclocks under my belt, but they can't even come close to comparing to my current A64 clocks and results.

 

DDR2 is nothing really, only now supporting 1000mhz, while there has been ddr1 in bga form from sumasung that could do 800mhz long long ago, and not really that expensive.

It's just no one has put these chips on ann actual stick of ram.

 

if it were realistic and could be done easily, we'd already have seen BGA memory on DIMM modules...but it just doesn't work that way. On top of that, putting memory IC on a module that can't possibly run at the IC's rated speed is pure waste...why put 800Mhz BGA IC's on a DIMM module for an AthlonXP suystem that barely can run 250Mhz?

 

That's like putting a 16-cylinder racing engine in your Honda...no matter how great that engine might be, there's no way the rear end, drivetrain, chassis, tires, etc could stay functioning correctly running at the 16-cylinder engine's peak...meaning you have a 16 cylinder racing engine that has to be driven at 55mph standard...waste of space, time, energy, and especially money.

 

$400 for 2x256m sticks.

Most people around here pay more then that for memory that does'nt get anything near that.

 

your numbers don't compute well.

 

No one buys 2x256MB anymore for current machines, unless they are purely for benchmarking. Today's games don't run all that well with 512MB total memory, and honestly neither does our bloated Windows OS with all the junk, drivers, software, etc, installed.

 

On top of that, top-end cpu's are not even set to 800Mhz true bus rates. Before you say Intel cpu's, keep in mind that they are actual bus speeds of only 200Mhz and 266Mhz...they are 'quad pumped' buses meaning that unlike previous generations of Intel and AMD cpu's running on standard DDR memory that get only 2 executions per clock cycle, the quad-pumped p4 architecture forces 4 executions per clock cycle.

 

200Mhz FSB x quad-pumped bus (4x instead of 2x) = 800Mhz P4

266Mhz FSB x quad-pumped bus (4x instead of 2x) = 1066Mhz P4

 

200Mhz FSB x standard DDR platforms like A64 = 400Mhz

 

 

 

with DDR2 on integrated memory controller like the newer M2 cpu's, we'll eventually see true 800Mhz buses, which would equate to 1600Mhz DDR, or whatever Intel's new gimmick might be (which will probably still use a separate memory controller hub which will again leave it behind the AMD offerings)

 

but designing a true 800Mhz bus on a consumer cpu is still extremely spendy....and there's really no need for such nonsense. We don't even truly need 3Ghz cpu's that are around now.

 

Sure us gamers dig it because we can crank everything up to the max and enjoy it better, but keep in mind that the USA majority of computers are still very very much below the types of rigs you and I like and build (P4 1.6Ghz, P4 1.8Ghz, 128MB ATI/Nvidia older generation cards if not integrated video chipsets). Compare that to the rest of the world, especially emerging economies and your average is now down around 800Mhz P3's or 1000Mhz AthlonXP cpu's with 64MB video (onboard or pci/agp).

 

But on the whole, we that do 'cutting edge' are a small minority. Even the growing base of 'gamers' or 'power users' that we are...we are still a very tiny chunk when you add in gaming consoles (notice that PC games get outsold by console games by 10:1 and as much as 50:1 in some instances, and console games for the most part are not pirated nearly as much as pc games are).

 

 

so what am I trying to get at?

 

 

just making sure you keep a little reality about some of your statements...and you are looking realistically at why companies like AMD and Intel move forward into new designs and platforms (they wouldn't if the old generation stuff like AthlonXP were superior now would they?).

 

Anyways that's my opinion, I think ddr2 is only for the oems really, not really for a oc'er.

You can't just say ddr2 beats all look at the benchs lol, I have and I beat all of them even on this nf2 board.

 

right now it is just OEM's because only Intel systems use DDR2, and Intel controls a good 85% of the OEM/System Integrator market

 

but right now they only control about 15%-25% of the enthusiast market, and their share slips a little bit each day I think.

 

And Intel systems using DDR2 actually can and do beat A64 setups...Intel's very best Extreme cpu with a 1066 bus on a very good overclocking board can still generate more memory bandwidth...but the latency is high because of it's separate memory controller hub, and the performance of P4 architecture cpu's is inferior to that of the Athlon64 at the moment (until Intel moves back to P3 architecture with fewer, shorter pipelines on a smaller micron process...then it will be all-out war again).

 

And again, you've not seen what a retail AMD M2 cpu + good DDr2 can do...none of us have because they are still putting the finishing touches on the final specs....fixing this and that etc to be ready in time for Q2 2006 release (DFI already has DDR2 M2 specs as do all other major mobo makers as far as I know).

 

Also, DDR2 modules can have twice the capacity which might be required during the lifetime of the next platform. Going to 8 RAM slots instead is certainly not doable for enthusiast and gamers boards.

 

very true statement...we are extremely limited now with consumer desktop setups...but it goes back to my earlier comments about how we really don't need these 8GB super workstation setups just to surf the net and enter db entries

 

but with 64-bit OS's and software, and the ever expanding technology of video, audio, interactive software, all that stuff that we see in movies eventually coming to personal computing...we are going to need to meet the demands that such software will require. We are at the limits really of what DDR1 and current generation AMD cpu's can really do (sorta like when we hit the AthlonXP 3000+ and 3200+...there really wasn't anywhere else to go up from there...so they switched designs and blammo now we have 2800Mhz cpu's with superior design architecture).

 

for the next generation of computing (for us cutting edge fools who spend our money all the time to have the latest, greatest etc), we definitely have to be realistic and think like Martin just said...it may seem foolish now because your current rig is plenty good enough for you...but what happens when you want to play Battlefield4 @ 2042x1650 with 16xAA/32xAF and all the realistic lighting, shadows, physics, etc?

 

people said we didn't need SLI...and they are right in a sense...unless you want superior performance with widescreen/high resolutions and all of the eye candy turned all the way up, all the graphics options maxed out etc...a single card just can't cut it as well as a good SLI/Crossfire solution can.

 

Majority of humans will never even buy into SLI or Crossfire until that is the only option (ie until the day you cannot buy single gpu video renderers).

 

same as majority would never need nor buy a 2800Mhz FX-57 for surfing the web, chatting in chat rooms, doing this or that but not really any of the heavy gaming, rendering, audio/video editing, etc that us niche 'enthusiasts' do.

 

They buy Dell/Gateway $599 Celeron 2Ghz systems with 512MB memory and 64MB integrated video, audio, and get their free LCD flat panel upgrade and printer.

 

anyway I am getting off track a bit.

 

we need a new socket change. As software for those of us on the cutting edge (gamers usually) starts needing more and more horsepower to run smooth, we realize we need newer, better, faster designs of hardware to run it because the current generation can't cut it anymore, and there's no headroom left to work into (this is also half the reason we moved to dual core cpu's as we found a ceiling with pure Mhz vs thermal/cost effective/design situations).

 

DDR2 is only half DDR1

533mhz DDR2 is 133mhz DDR1

667mhz DDR2 is 333mhz DDR1

 

no

 

533Mhz DDR2 = 266Mhz (hence DDR...double data rate...x2...DDR2 is just a new pin-out with higher latencies)

 

667Mhz DDR2 = 333Mhz x2

 

 

the higher latencies and capacities allow for much faster IC's to be implemented as the need for them increases (ie AMD/Intel cpu's grow ever faster in their communication bus between cpu/memory).

 

 

 

ok, sorry for getting a lil off on a tangent. Hope no one takes offense...but I feel like we need to realize why things move the way they do...sorta like why DFI puts the extra power connectors on the board...not to make you frustrated...but for a reason lol

[NEOAethyr]

, don't get me wrong here, I totally agree with the both of you .

 

I had agree'd apon that it's mainly so the industry can moved forward, since you just cannot sell oem rigs with say 500mhz ddr1 in them( err make that 600mhz right now as is ).

 

Also I agree that the at64 has a very nice memory controller .

It seems to help quite a it.

 

One thing that I'm really just realizing is the memory density, yes I sorta forgot about this.

 

If I were to take the same memory type I talked about before(though the newer vga cards probably use a higher density, I may be worn though), we'de need 256bit sticks of memory to support 512megs a stick.

 

Now I'm assuming that the at64 can support up to one of these sticks as a possiblity, this I truly would'nt know, just a guess, ie 4x 64bit slots.

 

Meaning we'de need dual core cpu's just to use 2 512meg sticks.

 

Obviusly this is way to extreme and to expensive to even think about supporting.

So yeah ddr2 is defently the way to go .

 

 

I had no idea that the m2 has an upgrade in it's memory controller for even more throughput .

Then again I only know what I've heard about it, meaning a modified socket 940, and ddr2 support.

 

 

Oh and btw, there is bga ddr1 sticks of memory out there, but I have no idea what type of memory is really on them.

I saw them long ago when looking around.

As far as I know they were'nt anythign special.

 

 

Good posts Martin Cracauer and Angry_Games .

[Angry_Games]

BGA memory is usually 128-bit interface, with the really good high end BGA like in a 7800GTX etc running on a 256-bit interface

 

another thing to keep in mind is that today's cpus are still only using dual 64-bit memory controllers (ie single channel is 64-bit, dual channel is 128-bit)

 

putting BGA on a DIMM module for moder cpu's not only is a waste of mhz, but is also a waste of efficiency since the cpu you are pairing it with can't possibly use 256-bit (dual 128-bit BGA memory modules) nor 512-bit interfaces (dual 256-bit interfaces)...so you again cripple the BGA to get it to run with today's cpu's...which is again a waste of time, energy, and money

[Speedpc]

sure you can run 1t at 2x1024, ( 2gb )

i am currently using ocz ddr500 2x1024EB

have also ran ocz 2x1024 3200EL with no

problems. i have what you are

considering buying still in the package

just haven't opened yet. read some reviews

on it but don't remember where, did not

do bad in them though.

 

Well i have it install and it ran at 250x11=2750 250x4x2=2000HTT right away not one glitch yet and since this is the max of my SD 4000+ i'm happy

 

Orange Slots 2.5/3/5/2 2.72volts @1T

[Ludus]

http://www.dfi-street.com/forum/showpost.p...154&postcount=2

thank you

[flabeachbum]

Well i have it install and it ran at 250x11=2750 250x4x2=2000HTT right away not one glitch yet and since this is the max of my SD 4000+ i'm happy

 

Orange Slots 2.5/3/5/2 2.72volts @1T

 

looks like a dadgum good oc

[JoshB]

Hey Angry

 

Is there much difference between NF4 non-expert and the Expert version? Is it worth the price difference? What sites have expert and non-expert version at the cheapest price? Thanks