I've Almost Seen It All....

[martymcfly]

the country was just just at one point created and intended to remain exactly the same forever, it is constantly changing Lo, the country is not the same one that was created many years ago. It is changing. Things that applied years ago no longer apply now, and things that matter now did not matter many years ago. As verran was saying, for years slavery worked well. For the white males. This has changed, and now we realize (as our founders did not) that the white males are not all that matter. We have to look out for everybody. We now know that, ethically, while slavery works out rather well for white males, it is much less kind to the slaves. We realized that although women voting may not matter to men, it does to women, and that should ethically matter to us.

 

Our country is allowed to change, and this change is decided by the people who live here. The country is made up of many poeple, and even though certain people may be indifferent about or benefit from public religion, others are on the other end.

 

 

I will stop now. I do not like being involved in these threads because I have been told that my opinions are incredibly stupid and I am a white supremist (sic). This will probably be my only post in this topic. You may disregard it if you find it stupid or offensive (if offensive, i didnt mean it, anything i say comes out wrong).

[94Camaro]

Wait, so I have dominance over people becuase I'm Christian? Markings on buildings hardly seem like 'dominance' to me. Sure, Christianity plays a large part in President Bush's decisions dealing with abortion, but Christianity isn't the only religion that prohibits murder either. In order to remove religion from government, we would have to make all things that most religions are against (ie murder, theft) legal. But wait, you say, these are just common decency things, they can still be laws! No, without religion there is no concept of good/evil, so murder is no longer bad. Hardly a society I want to live in. How 'bout you? This country is based on religion whether you like it or not. To remove religion now, would eventually lead to the collapse of society, leading into anarchy and a horrifically chaotic world.

[LoArmistead]

For you Marty, verran, berzerk, and kashk:

 

Swifty, this is a well-rounded debate, no reason to close it.

 

Also, you libs are taking my "stick with what works" statement WAY out of proportion. But I don't blame you personally, this has always been part of the liberal thought process. Concentrate on one particular, easily spinnable statement and twist and turn it into something that was not meant when the original statement was mentioned. "Stick with what works". I also said before that sentence that I like how the nation has been doing for the past 200 years. Women's ability to vote and freedom of slaves occured in the past 200 years. When I said I like how this country has been run for the last 200 years, that included the things that had happened within that time frame. That sentence did not mean we need to place all black people into bondage and put all women back into the kitchen, it's ridiculous to think that is what I meant. To put it more plainly as to avoid more spin, though I do agree that changes often need to be made in this country to keep up with the times (i.e. women voting and ending slavery), I still believe that we should remember where we came from, and that some things can not be changed. For instance, the founding of this nation was based on christian beliefs. That is a fact, a concrete fact, that no matter what happens, cannot be changed. The Fact that our judicial system is based on christianity should not and can not be covered up by these new age liberal ideals; "Well since there are the tablets of the ten commandments on the court house, there should also be a giant statue of Buddha, it's only fair!" That shows complete and utter disregard for the basic principles of the United States. Some things are best left the way they have been, and some things need to be changed.

[Verran]

Wait, so I have dominance over people becuase I'm Christian? Markings on buildings hardly seem like 'dominance' to me. Sure, Christianity plays a large part in President Bush's decisions dealing with abortion, but Christianity isn't the only religion that prohibits murder either.

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Wow, could you take that on more of a tangent? I submit that you could not!

 

Isn't the only religion that prohibits murder? Where the crap are you going with that?

 

Markings on a building are not dominance themselves, no. But signs of it, yes. Like I said so plainly before, you see evidence of no other religion in all of our buildings and currency than Christianity. For you, that isn't a problem. But for non-Christians it says that this country is Christian, regardless of our claims of equality, which are obviously false.

 

No, without religion there is no concept of good/evil, so murder is no longer bad. Hardly a society I want to live in. How 'bout you? This country is based on religion whether you like it or not. To remove religion now, would eventually lead to the collapse of society, leading into anarchy and a horrifically chaotic world.

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And taking away religion takes away right and wrong? Got a bit of a bloated sense of importance, maybe? I'm not religious, you claiming I don't know right and wrong? "Anarchy and a horrifically chaotic world"? Wow. Again maybe a BIT too much stock in your religion. Atheists seem to handle their lives just fine sans a bit of dogma, including myself. I think removing religion would do just as much good as harm. But again, we'll never agree on that. My point is that removing religion from the government would not mean removing laws. I can't understand how you would get that conclusion. But then again, I can't understand a lot of the conclusions you make. And you me, most likely.

 

 

For you Marty, verran, berzerk, and kashk:

 

Swifty, this is a well-rounded debate, no reason to close it.

 

Also, you libs are taking my "stick with what works" statement WAY out of proportion.  But I don't blame you personally, this has always been part of the liberal thought process.  Concentrate on one particular, easily spinnable statement and twist and turn it into something that was not meant when the original statement was mentioned.  "Stick with what works".

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You say that's part of the liberal thought process. I think it's a part of yours. Yet again, any chance maybe both of us see the other that way? Earthshattering concept, I know.

 

As far as me spinning what you say. Have you not done the same. I typed out a ton of justification a few posts ago, and you hit one point quickly, and left the rest completely untouched. But I'll make one of them again, and maybe this time you'll read it:

 

You say that it's the history of this great nation, and you can't change that. But you're wrong. History evolves as time passes. When once you could look to our history and see only white christians, you can now look and see hundreds of years of co-existance. Does this mean nothing? I ask again: When will the non-white, non-christian be concidered a part of American history? When will white christian men let go of this dream of superiority and admit that this country is made of up ALL kinds, not just theirs?

[94Camaro]

Wow, could you take that on more of a tangent?  I submit that you could not!

 

Isn't the only religion that prohibits murder?  Where the crap are you going with that?

Maybe I should have elaborated on that statement. You say that President Bush is following Christian views. I do not argue this. But they are also views of non-Christians. IE "other religions" Therefore, I don't see why people of other faiths would object to these values. It is only the non-religious who object. Therefore, it could be concluded that Christianity is not THE dominant religion. It would mean that religion is dominant over non-religion.

 

 

And taking away religion takes away right and wrong?  Got a bit of a bloated sense of importance, maybe?  I'm not religious, you claiming I don't know right and wrong?  "Anarchy and a horrifically chaotic world"?  Wow.  Again maybe a BIT too much stock in your religion.  Atheists seem to handle their lives just fine sans a bit of dogma, including myself.  I think removing religion would do just as much good as harm.  But again, we'll never agree on that.  My point is that removing religion from the government would not mean removing laws.  I can't understand how you would get that conclusion.  But then again, I can't understand a lot of the conclusions you make.  And you me, most likely.

Why do you feel stealing is wrong? (assuming you do) What has led you to this conclusion? It it because the laws tell you to? Or did you 'just know' when you were very young? You might have, but most people don't. Don't believe me? Ever steal a peice of bubble gum as a child? Sure, small crime, but crime nonetheless. I say you know theft is wrong, as much as you hate to believe this, because of religion. You personally may not be religious, but the society you live in is. You can't avoid it, no matter how much you want to. My point is, if you want to remove religion as completely as you seem to, you'll have to remove everything that has been built around it. That mean many, many laws. Which leads to my suggested scenario.

 

That seems like a jumble, but it makes sense in my head. Just having trouble explaining it.

 

 

You say that it's the history of this great nation, and you can't change that.  But you're wrong.  History evolves as time passes.

History does not change. History is a chronological list of past events. PAST events. We can change what WILL be history, but not what WAS.

 

 

When once you could look to our history and see only white christians, you can now look and see hundreds of years of co-existance.  Does this mean nothing?  I ask again:  When will the non-white, non-christian be concidered a part of American history?  When will white christian men let go of this dream of superiority and admit that this country is made of up ALL kinds, not just theirs?

This last part makes no sense to me. Can you clarify? I do not deny that this country is not made up of all kinds, but what is happening is MY kind is being pushed down in the name of 'equality'. Why not let all kinds display their beliefs, rather than remove mine?

[HoLoDreaM]

As for the atheists..plenty of them existed when this nation was founded, and in these times, just as in the 1780's, the atheists are SOL.  90% of Americans today believe in some form of 'God'.  You can be atheist, fine.  But to choose to live in this nation, a nation founded upon the teachings of our lord and savior Jesus Christ, you need to be emotionally able to handle "GOD" written on our buildings.  If it offends you, tough %$, get the %&$^ out, we were founded on the pillars of christianity, and if you don't like it, no one says you have to stay here.  Better yet, if you're an atheist and don't believe in God, what reason is there to be 'offended' by his name being mentioned?  I don't believe in aliens, but when someone mentions "aliens" I don't shat my pants do I?  I don't go whining to my congressman that someone mentioned a word that offends me.

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we get offended that they have to use the word WE..speak for yourself, douchebags. and look at yourself... you're such an equal person telling atheists to get the hell out... none of your arguments make any sense at all.. i say keep the word god off every god d4m thing there is

Edited August 29, 2005 by HoLoDreaM

[Verran]

You say that President Bush is following Christian views. I do not argue this. But they are also views of non-Christians. IE "other religions" Therefore, I don't see why people of other faiths would object to these values.

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Maybe you're right. But I have seen/heard him make references to a christian god, and the bible in his speeches. And I've said many times that as a man, he's allowed to do that. As a leader of a nation that embraces equality (or claims to), I think he gave up that right. If he was a true leader, he wouldn't express his religion. He could still have it, and even use it to make decisions, but he wouldn't vocalize it. Vocalizing it shows favoritism, which does not coexist with equality.

 

Why do you feel stealing is wrong?

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I was raised as a methodist. Not strict, but I was. Pretty much the whole family has slowly dropped all religion since then. I'm not atheist, more agnostic. I think all the organized religions have got it wrong. Anyways, my parents (though we were church-going) never said "You don't steal because God said you don't. Thou shalt not steal. See, it's right here". They did say "How'd you like it if someone took something of yours? Wouldn't like that too much, would you?" It's not just given in the bible, you know. It's logic. Do unto others.... It's actually quite simple.

 

My point is, if you want to remove religion as completely as you seem to, you'll have to remove everything that has been built around it. That mean many, many laws.

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Why? That makes no sense. Again, laws are not based solely on religion, as much as you'd like to believe that. Laws are logic. Take obscure tax laws, or something weird like that. Where's the religion in that? There is none. Laws, though they coincide with relgious beliefs (sometimes) are not based on religion. They are based on logic. They are based in not wanting hurtful things done to you. Therefore, removing religion from government would NOT remove laws, and would therefore not result in a chaotic anarchy of heathens, as you so depict.

 

History does not change. History is a chronological list of past events. PAST events. We can change what WILL be history, but not what WAS.

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Yes, history cannot be re-written, we know this. However, history, in its entirity, continually evolves. Like I said, the "history" of this country once contained only white christian males. We have since changed greatly, and added a lot to our "history" as a country. The same can no longer be said of white male christians and all that. In that way, our "history" has changed. It is no longer dominated by one religion or race or gender, but rather filled with all types of all of these classifications. That's what I mean, and I thought I explained it. I had hoped we could skip the "No, no, you can't rewrite history!!!!1!!11!" talk.....

 

I do not deny that this country is not made up of all kinds, but what is happening is MY kind is being pushed down in the name of 'equality'. Why not let all kinds display their beliefs, rather than remove mine?

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Yes, you are being "pushed down" in the same way that white plantation and slave owners were "pushed down" when slavery ended. It was harsh to them, but was done for the greater good. Would anyone dispute that? At some point, people have to give up dominance to enable equality, like it or not. And right now, your religion enjoys a clear dominance. Must be great.... for you.

[HoLoDreaM]

great last post there.. i liked the last paragraph... very well put...

 

i hate how this world seems to think that if you're not christian you're weird or something... they always ask me.. well what do you believe in? its not what i believe in.. its what you dont believe is real

[LoArmistead]

You say that it's the history of this great nation, and you can't change that.  But you're wrong.  History evolves as time passes.  When once you could look to our history and see only white christians, you can now look and see hundreds of years of co-existance.  Does this mean nothing?  I ask again:  When will the non-white, non-christian be concidered a part of American history?  When will white christian men let go of this dream of superiority and admit that this country is made of up ALL kinds, not just theirs?

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That same topic has been covered in ecery post I've made for the past 3 pages, that's what I'm talking about with your liberal thought process, you aren't seeing it. Non-white, non-christians are already a part of mainstream America. There are chuches for all religions all over the country, free of persecution. There are TV channels in larger citites dedicated specifically for certain religions (i.e. Muslim TV channels around DC). To say that this country is not already a mixture of everything the world has to offer is just....jumping on the liberal bandwagon. As I said man times before, I am more than happy that there are so many religions and cultures in this country, BUT, they have NOTHING to do with our judicial system. Our judicial system is christian, thus it shall remain. We do not put Quran's on our government buildings for the same reason we do not ask mosque's to put a pictures of jesus on the cross out in front of their churches. Because they have nothing to do with each other. Islam has nothing to do with our judicial system, christianity does. So, does it make it any easier to put it this way, US Judicial system = Christian. US Judicial System does NOT = any other religion except Christianty. Our government (which was based on christianity if you didn't know) courthouses have christian symbols on them. Is it so hard for you to understand this? Is it THAT difficult to see that the reason we haven't any symbols of other religions on our courthouses is because the founding of our judicial system had nothing to do with other religions? Tell me you haven't read this four times already.

 

 

we get offended that they have to use the word WE..speak for yourself, douchebags. and look at yourself... you're such an equal person telling atheists to get the hell out...  none of your arguments make any sense at all.. i say keep the word god off every god d4m thing there is

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I don't mind living in harmony with atheists buddy. I don't question your beliefs, you don't question anyone elses. The reason my arguments don't make any sense to you is probably because you aren't very educated on the topic at hand, and that's fine, but posting something like that ^^^ doesn't reinforce your stance any.

Demanding God be taken off of everything shows a serious lack of understanding of anything that has to do with this country.

[94Camaro]

I suggested we allow displays of all kinds, but instead you'd rather remove mine and display nothing (which could be construed as endorsing atheism). I am not harming anyone with my views, as the slave owners did. I am willing to let everyone express themselves equally. It seems to me that the very people complaining of 'oppression' are simply wanting to reverse the 'oppression', not bring equality. Equality is not allowing only the atheists display their nothingness. Equality would be allowing everyone to display their views.

 

I feel oppressed by your wanting to remove my beliefs. You feel oppressed by my displaying my beliefs. How about a compromise, where we both display beliefs, like I have stated in several of my posts, and even bolded?

Edited August 29, 2005 by 94Camaro

[LoArmistead]

I suggested we allow displays of all kinds, but instead you'd rather remove mine and display nothing (which could be construed as endorsing atheism). I am not harming anyone with my views, as the slave owners did. I am willing to let everyone express themselves equally. It seems to me that the very people complaining of 'oppression' are simply wanting to reverse the 'oppression', not bring equality. Equality is not allowing only the atheists display their nothingness. Equality would be allowing everyone to display their views.

 

I feel oppressed by your wanting to remove my beliefs. You feel oppressed by my displaying my beliefs. How about a compromise, where we both display beliefs, like I have stated in several of my posts, and even bolded?

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that is the great trap of the liberal movement, and they haven't figured it out yet. All of these freedoms they try and spout off...it's a double-edged sword. the same freedom they use is the same freedom we are allowed to use. Now, letting any religion display their symbols (which is already done all over the place) does not mean we start putting Qurans and Buddhas on the courthouse steps, but I see what you mean.

[Verran]

Lo, how is it that our judicial system, and our government itself is based on christianity? I think this is a view shared only by christians. Our country was found by christians, true. But that doesn't mean it's based on their religion. Show me where the constitution says we're "based on christianity", or that our government "is christian". I think this is another cocky view of the christians. So self involved that they view themselves as more important than the rest. "You can do whatever you want, sure, just remember who RUNS this place."

 

Yes the founders were christian, but that doesn't mean that the country is. Like I said, it all falls back to equality. We're all equal, but the Christians are just a little more equal, cuz we were here first.... It's BS. These are your assumptions as a christian, and there's no backing to them in the government. Our government has no more "right" to be christian than it does any other religion.