I've Almost Seen It All....

[94Camaro]

Lo, how is it that our judicial system, and our government itself is based on christianity? I think this is a view shared only by christians.  Our country was found by christians, true.  But that doesn't mean it's based on their religion.  Show me where the constitution says we're "based on christianity", or that our government "is christian".  I think this is another cocky view of the christians.  So self involved that they view themselves as more important than the rest.  "You can do whatever you want, sure, just remember who RUNS this place."

 

Yes the founders were christian, but that doesn't mean that the country is.  Like I said, it all falls back to equality.  We're all equal, but the Christians are just a little more equal, cuz we were here first....  It's BS.  These are your assumptions as a christian, and there's no backing to them in the government.  Our government has no more "right" to be christian than it does any other religion.

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Wait, so you're using the argument that President Bush is using religion in his office, but you say in the next breath the the Christian founders of this nation probably ignored their religion when they founded the country???

[LoArmistead]

lol

 

Well, Verran, it is not written anywhere that the government is based on christianity..as that would disprove the 1st amendment. BUT, the government was founded by christians, thus implemented in the way it works are several christian values. Christian values on life, government, and even war believe it or not. The country was founded on conservative christian values by conservative christian men. It is no coincidence that every president in history has been a christian...

[Verran]

I edited this into my last post, but I guess I'll just put it here now....

 

Camaro: You've suggested putting all religions on government buildings? I don't think so. In fact, you've expressed disdain for that very idea. You'd like them to put their beliefs elsewhere, right? Those government buildings are Christian property, huh?

 

And on the topic of removing everything: you think that's atheism? Huh? That's absurd! So any building without a graphic that affiliates it with a religion is atheist? Come on now. I'd be all for having pics of all religions on government buildings. That'd be great. All you've got to do is cover them all, and leave room for new ones. Not an easy task. Why not favor none, rather than favor one? That's my point. If you think that my wanting no religions of any kind on there is atheist, you've missed the whole point. Besides, I'm not atheist, I already said that.

 

Wait, so you're using the argument that President Bush is using religion in his office, but you say in the next breath the the Christian founders of this nation probably ignored their religion when they founded the country???   

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Yes. And yes. I don't put Bush anywhere near the moral mark of the founders. I don't think he has NEARLY the respect for equality that they did. So yes, I did say both of these things, and I stand by them now.

 

And again I ask: Show me anything in the constitution that says that we are a christian country. Show me anything that implies it. I think you christians ASSUME that we're christian because that's what YOU are.

 

EDIT: (can't post twice, posts come in while I respond)

Lo, you say all presidents have been christian. You're right. Christians still hold power, no doubt about it. Do you think that will always be the case? There's never been a black president, or a woman president. Again, does that mean that it's ok that white christian men dominate? How long til that starts changing?

 

But for now, you're right. The government is made of up mostly white christian men. But until we become a dictatorship, the people still vote. And you white christian men don't hold nearly the majority that you used to. Times will continue to change.

[94Camaro]

No, I assume the country was founded on Christian ideals because the founders were Christian. Not because I am.

 

 

And yes, I admit my argument about building marking and atheism is pretty lame, but I use it to show you just how lame it is to be offended by the markings on buildings. Make any sense at all?

[LoArmistead]

I'm typically pretty humble, and I don't like to come across as a pompous a$$, but Verran, it just hit me why you don't realize it. It would involve an understanding of christian values and possibly an understanding of the constitution and US History for you to see what I am talking about. Until this happens, I guess I'll sit this out as anything else I type regarding this subject will fall on deaf ears. it's really not worth my time. Good luck.

[Kamikaze_Badger]

Sure, Christianity plays a large part in President Bush's decisions dealing with abortion, but Christianity isn't the only religion that prohibits murder either. In order to remove religion from government, we would have to make all things that most religions are against (ie murder, theft) legal. But wait, you say, these are just common decency things, they can still be laws! No, without religion there is no concept of good/evil, so murder is no longer bad. Hardly a society I want to live in. How 'bout you? This country is based on religion whether you like it or not. To remove religion now, would eventually lead to the collapse of society, leading into anarchy and a horrifically chaotic world.

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I'll skip alot of posts here and make a quick agreement before my mind is destroyed by long ranting posts.

 

 

The Wiccan Rede:

 

"An it harm none, do as ye wish." <--- As long as no one is hurt or harmed in any way, you may do what you like. And this includes yourself.

 

"He who shows hostility to man will be shown hostility to by Allah." <--- A Muslim quote I've read.

 

"<insert first Ten Commandments, Second Edition, here>" <--- We all know about that.

 

"Sila, Samadhi, Prajna." <--- Buddhist teachings, meaning Virtue, Good Conduct, and Morality. See also: Eight Fold Path. The ONLY form of violence I've ever heard of Buddhism is "If you meet the Buddha on your path, kill him." And what does this mean? Never listen to false peoples...

 

 

 

And now, I must go.

[Verran]

No, I assume the country was founded on Christian ideals because the founders were Christian. Not because I am.

And yes, I admit my argument about building marking and atheism is pretty lame, but I use it to show you just how lame it is to be offended by the markings on buildings. Make any sense at all?

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Makes perfect sense. So you shouldn't be offended if they change some of them. It's all just silly, right? No point to any of it. Just ignore what you don't like.

 

I'm typically pretty humble, and I don't like to come across as a pompous a$$, but Verran, it just hit me why you don't realize it.  It would involve an understanding of christian values and possibly an understanding of the constitution and US History for you to see what I am talking about. Until this happens, I guess I'll sit this out as anything else I type regarding this subject will fall on deaf ears.  it's really not worth my time.  Good luck.

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Save me the holier than thou crap. It's just a cop out. I was a christian for twenty years. I've read a large portion of the bible. And my mother was a US history teacher for 30 some years. Sorry, but your "you wouldn't understand" crap just doesn't fly with me, man.

 

and to KB:

I say again. Just because god chose to mystically carve these rules into stone doesn't mean that we didn't already know them. Yes, all religions teach concepts like these. But I don't need a bible to tell me that I don't want my crap stolen. Do you? And if you don't want it done to you, then don't do it to others. That's not a christian thing, that's not a muslim thing, it's a human thing. It's friggin' logic.

[94Camaro]

Makes perfect sense.

Edited August 29, 2005 by 94Camaro

[NCC10281982B]

Good points all.

 

But please.

[Verran]

No, I'm offended at the removal of history. It is history because I believe the founders based this country on Christianity. Look at the Declaration of Independance. There are several references to the Creator in it. Yes, it is not the Constitution, but it is from the same time period, from people with the same ideals. I can offer no other hard evidence, but I seriously doubt the founders could ignore their own personal 'bias'. I've never met a person yet who was completely impartial, and in something as great as starting a country, it would be impossible to not let something slip through.

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Ok, a middle ground then. New buildings, statues, monuments. All in the name of other religions. Every religion found in the country. From now on, all government buildings represent a different religion. If we can't change our history (these buildings), we will start writing the history from today back on our new buildings, so that someday all religions will be depicted.

[94Camaro]

Ok, a middle ground then.  New buildings, statues, monuments.  All in the name of other religions.  Every religion found in the country.  From now on, all government buildings represent a different religion.  If we can't change our history (these buildings), we will start writing the history from today back on our buildings, so that someday all religions will be depicted.

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So you want to remove history because someone doesn't feel 'included'? Hang on a sec, lemme get a handkerchief. I was always the next to last kid to get chosen for the soccer team at recess. Maybe I'll get soccer banned so some other poor child doesn't have to suffer as I did.

[Verran]

So you want to remove history because someone doesn't feel 'included'? Hang on a sec, lemme get a handkerchief. I was always the next to last kid to get chosen for the soccer team at recess. Maybe I'll get soccer banned so some other poor child doesn't have to suffer as I did. 

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No, do you see what I said? New buildings. You don't want to remove our history from those buildings. I can see that. So next time they put up a new government building, we put non-christian things on it. Like African, or Muslim, or Japanese, maybe Chinese? After all, are these people not part of our history now? And if you'll notice, I edited in a "new" in the last sentence, but you were too busy making personal attacks to notice that. But that's fine, they're just a cop out, just like Lo's statement.

 

And by the way, I don't play soccer. Don't play any sports, but I'm sure that's just more fuel for your macho hate machine. No, guitar's more my thing. Make your next personal attack about that.