Those of you with "socialized medicine"...

[red930]

Attention:

 

I've grown tired of being misunderstood in this thread. Before anyone attacks me again, please refer back to my very first post in this thread. I'm no fan of the current state of health care funded by insurance any more than that provided by socialized medicine...

http://www.diy-street.com/forum/showpost.p...13&postcount=29

 

I can read and fully understand my posts. As you know full well from my reply to wevsspot post, healthcare worker shortage is a world wide problem and not just limited to country's with a national health service. As you seem to like linking to things to back your "non" case, then have a read of these:

 

here and here and here. If you have the intention of twisting other peoples post in an attempt to back your own case, then at least get your FACTS right.

 

No sir you don't. Your case is niether well rounded or factual and it certainly will not be "rested" by twisting what i write to fit your case.

 

I notice you still hav'nt answered this:

 

So you're trying to use facts that you don't understand to prop up your claims. This is gonna be fun...

 

link from your first "here"...

http://www.venturacountystar.com/news/2007...rtage-a-danger/

 

The entire reason there's a shortage is because Medi-Cal sets the rates that doctors can charge. Since they can't afford to pay workers real wages the workers don't want to do the job.

 

see the Medi-Cal page here...

http://www.medi-cal.ca.gov/

 

link from your second "here"...

http://abclocal.go.com/kgo/story?section=health&id=5743620

 

The chair of the City College of San Francisco Radiologic Technology Department, Kyle Thornton, has been a technologist for 24 years. He says the labor shortage started years ago when women started leaving these traditionally female occupations for other opportunities.

 

the third and final "here"...

http://www.usavisacounsel.com/

after I fixed the broken link I ended up here "The Law Offices of Richard Hanus" so I'm not sure where you were going with that argument.

 

You really need to read and understand the stuff you link.

 

The "health care worker shortage" is induced by the very policies of socialized medicine.

 

Let's say your job is to overclock computers. Everyone has a right to an overclocked computer. You make a good living supplying overclocked computers at a fair rate based upon your training and supply cost.

 

Your government steps in and decides to "nationalize" the overclocking of computers so everyone can have an overclocked computer. They set the rate you can charge for your work at a level lower than you feel is fair for your training and time. You decide to stop overclocking computers along with a fair percentage of your fellow overclockers. Suddenly there's a shortage of overclockers in the market and your fellow citizens have to do without overclocked computers.

 

Did that help you relate to the problems caused by socialized medicine? if not, please refer to one of my personal heroes, Dr. Walter E. Williams. Spend some quality time with his essays. He's a very smart man that many could learn from...

http://www.gmu.edu/departments/economics/wew/

 

Government should only do three things and do them very well. Provide for Infrastructure(roads, fire protection), Justice(police, courts and legislatures) and Defense(a standing capable army). Everything else is simply getting in the way of human rights.

[Clay]

The Contitution does not guarantee health care! It guarantees freedom! Therefore the federal government should not even be involved. It should go back to minding it's own bussiness as the contitution dictates. The states however should be able to do pretty much whatever they want. Provided their measures are contitutionally approved. (That hasen't happened in a while)

 

Perhaps if the federal reserve would quit printing money out of thin air. Or maybe if we would quit borrowing 3billion dollars a day from foreign interest .. The cost of healthcare might drop.. Big government+Big spending=Big corruption+Big inflation..Which means the little guys gets hurt. Usually the defenseless. If you don't believe me..

Google " foster kids meds ". I could rant forever. Vaccines with mecury based preservatives? Congress passed a law to remove that. But bush vetoed it. Oh well.... I guess.... It's an interest of his family.. That really all I should say about him. GRRRRRR!!!!! Government has no bussiness in medicine.

 

Michael Moore? He misses alot!(On purpose.) You'd might as well let Henry Kissinger make your documenteries. "Sicko" I haven't seen it yet. But I'll look it over. (Then I'll search for the truth) Sounds like a part of a push for billary's campiagn.

 

Billary? OMG! Please no! But unless a miricle happens he-she-it-them is our next president.

It has been reported that she was at bilderbergs in 06. (She denies it. But sez Bill was there) I may have footage of her there,here somewhere. But I get so much stuff. It's like trying to get a drink outta' a firehose.. (And sorting the facts from fiction)But since Bilderbergs don't invite wannabe presidents..(Or thier husbands) Then Yep.. You got it.... (The fix is in..)

 

Global warming: The polar ice caps on mars are melting. So it would stand to reason that the polar ice caps here would melt too. (Solar cycle) Though I'm an avid cyclist and I don't burn gas. (I don't drive.) And I dislike sharing "MY" road with motorist. LOL.. I don't believe CO2 is the threat it's presented. A world carbon tax will just give the UN more power.(Wouldn't even slow the CO2 down) The methane in the permafrost thats melting is a bigger danger. And the methane hydrate in the oceans is a really really bad deal should the ocean currents warm up. Might as well be camping out on venus.. So if were gonna' cook. Were gonna' cook.. A global carbon tax isn't going to stop it. Propaganda for more money-power for the UN? Looks like.........

 

Maybe I'm old fashion but I believe we as a country have lost sight of something very very important. What happened people?

 

Someone asked about Ron Paul. Myself I'm supporting him. But there are some big hurdles. First major media networks mostly missquotes his views. Along with everything else happening in the world.(Spin) Or they just don't tell us about it. But then when you investigate who owns these networks. It should be no surprise. Then theres some perscution.

 

Then the problem getting the nomination. If he gets that far I believe he can win.

 

But then again the last president who shared his views was murdered. (Along with his brother and his son) Goodness! Who could do such a thing? And why? And how did they get away it for so long? That alone should tell you who did it.

 

"What this country really needs right now. Is a doctor."

 

Ron Paul is a baby doctor he's delievered 4000+ babies. I'm sure if he was there when the lady mentioned at the start of the thread had her baby. She would have got treated. We need to start taking better care of each other. Money shouldn't be the issue it has become.

 

If anyone is interested in Ron Paul? http://www.ronpaul2008.com/

 

Edit: Ooops! I'm sorry Angry this thread is not for americans... I skimed through the whole thing before posting. But I seem to have missed that little blurb at the start...... (Sorry)

[red930]

Here's another triumph of socialized medicine...

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml.../17/wfat117.xml

 

A British man who moved to New Zealand has been told by officials that his wife is too fat to join him.

 

"However, the immigration department’s focus is different, it cannot afford to import people into the country who are going to be a significant drain on our health resources."

 

So much for human rights!

[Skip04]

Did that help you relate to the problems caused by socialized medicine? if not, please refer to one of my personal heroes, Dr. Walter E. Williams. Spend some quality time with his essays. He's a very smart man that many could learn from...

http://www.gmu.edu/departments/economics/wew/

 

Thanks for the link Ex, some interesting reading.

[3stars]

Government should only do three things and do them very well. Provide for Infrastructure(roads, fire protection), Justice(police, courts and legislatures) and Defense(a standing capable army). Everything else is simply getting in the way of human rights.

 

Just to ask one question here ex why fire protection but not heath care ????

 

you can take out insurance for it maybe put a little aside just in case buy youself a extingisher, a long hose maybe keep a bucket of sand next to the bed then again why roads you own a shovel don't you???

 

you see my point if you want one why can't you have the other, socialized medicine does work, perhaps not perfectly but it's better than nothing and it should be the resposability of the goverment, and theres no valid reason why not, . you have a government that will send million dollar rockets to blow up a country for oil money but you dont want them to spend it on citizens of it's own.

Yes people should look after themselves but as i pointed out (perhaps a little harshly)there will allways be those that cannot do it themselves due to circumstances out of there control, we are not all that fortunate.

i don't mean the lazy good for nothing's that want hand out after hand out people that work hard also need our help it's not feudal lords anymore nor the days of the robber barons of old, theres too many people now and the goverment should evolve with the growing need of the population.

[3stars]

Attention:

 

I've grown tired of being misunderstood in this thread. Before anyone attacks me again, please refer back to my very first post in this thread. I'm no fan of the current state of health care funded by insurance any more than that provided by socialized medicine...

seems to me to be the perfect argument FOR socilized medicine i've read, your first post that is.

[red930]

Attention:

 

I've grown tired of being misunderstood in this thread. Before anyone attacks me again, please refer back to my very first post in this thread. I'm no fan of the current state of health care funded by insurance any more than that provided by socialized medicine...

 

seems to me to be the perfect argument FOR socilized medicine i've read, your first post that is.

 

WOW! Should have seen that coming My fault!

 

Just to ask one question here ex why fire protection but not heath care ????

 

So break out the knife and needle with twine. Start boiling the Willow bark right now.

 

This thread has now reached BIZZARRO so let's go there.

 

The most basic "human right" is life.

 

Rachel Carson doomed millions of humans to die of insect vector diseases with the publication of her book "Silent Spring" in 1962. Why don't you guys start raising hell about how many people die every year due to the lack of proper pesticides.

 

The stigma placed on the chemical DDT caused it's eventual withdrawal from use even though it was specifically recommended and approved for insect vector abatement.

 

Sure, DDT is available even today for use to prevent insect vector diseases but most times it still can't be used due to government or "aid society" rules.

 

If I contract and die from the West Nile virus because DDT can't be used to save some birds, what value does human life really have?

 

If over 1 million people on the African continent die each year because DDT can't be used, what value does human life really have?

 

From one of your own doctors...

http://www.dea.org.au/node/185

 

FTA "Perhaps a significant problem with the ban on DDT is that its toxicity was researched and promoted by environmentalists. Dr Miller exposes his feelings by writing "Of course, spraying any pesticide -- let alone DDT -- has been greeted by hysteria from environmental activists, who have attacked the killing of mosquitoes as "disrupting the food chain."

 

Simply BIZZARO!

[powsmowl]

Hm..I get free healthcare for as long as my mother works at EMBO (european molecular biology organization)...the only problem is that sometimes the doctors get confused because EMBO is NOT part of germany even though i live 10 minutes away from their offices...its not officialy in any country..

 

oh...and i dont have to pay taxes either because a family member works at EMBO

[kitfit1]

Health is a basic human right, in the same way that self defence is. Would you advocate people being able to say "i have a gun, so i can defend MYSELF, therfore i'm paying nothing in taxes towards the defence of my country and fellow citizens" ?

 

Still waiting ExRoadie

[red930]

Still waiting ExRoadie

 

"Health is a basic human right, in the same way that self defence is. Would you advocate people being able to say "i have a gun, so i can defend MYSELF, therfore i'm paying nothing in taxes towards the defence of my country and fellow citizens" ?"

 

This is commonly referred to as a "straw man" argument...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man

 

But, if I were going to try to answer it I would have to say you're confusing "access" to health care with the "provision" of national defense.

 

There is simply no way to equate the two principles using standard logic.

[kitfit1]

This is commonly referred to as a "straw man" argument...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man

 

But, if I were going to try to answer it I would have to say you're confusing "access" to health care with the "provision" of national defense.

 

There is simply no way to equate the two principles using standard logic.

 

No, i'm not confusing access with provision. Because this whole debate is about the "Provision" of a national healthcare service within the USA. The real reason you won't answer the question is very simple. You, like me, believe in a taxpayer funded standing defence provision for all country's, as a human right. You also believe in healthcare as a human right, but you only want to fund your own healthcare, and everyone else can go fxxk themselves. For you to answer my question truthfully, you would have to say that "people have the wright to opt out of being taxed towards defence". Because you ARE saying YOU have the right not to pay for national healthcare. You see Ex, it goes back to what Angry posted earlier in this thread, ME ME ME, i don't give a . about anyone else. Your whole position on this is based on lies kept alive by your NeoCon buddies, repeating the same lies over and over and over again, "say it for long enough and they will believe it"

 

As for "The straw man link" LOL, if ever a link described your attempts here, i could'nt have chosen better myself.

 

At the end of the day, it dos'nt matter a toss to me if the USA get's a national health service or not. Where i live, we have had one for 60 years and regardless of what you say, IT WORKS. But i am genuinely concerned for the tens of millions of hard working US citizens that are denied FULL and PROPER healthcare by big bussiness and politicians with the same mindset as you.

[red930]

Dude, you stepped over the line on this one.

 

You also believe in healthcare as a human right, but you only want to fund your own healthcare, and everyone else can go fxxk themselves.

 

To make this statement and attribute it to me or my writings after reading my posts in this thread is a bald face lie, an affront to common decency and you have been called out.

 

You will not be addressed in this thread or forum again.

 

ExRoadie

 

 

No, i'm not confusing access with provision. Because this whole debate is about the "Provision" of a national healthcare service within the USA. The real reason you won't answer the question is very simple. You, like me, believe in a taxpayer funded standing defence provision for all country's, as a human right. You also believe in healthcare as a human right, but you only want to fund your own healthcare, and everyone else can go fxxk themselves. For you to answer my question truthfully, you would have to say that "people have the wright to opt out of being taxed towards defence". Because you ARE saying YOU have the right not to pay for national healthcare. You see Ex, it goes back to what Angry posted earlier in this thread, ME ME ME, i don't give a . about anyone else. Your whole position on this is based on lies kept alive by your NeoCon buddies, repeating the same lies over and over and over again, "say it for long enough and they will believe it"

 

As for "The straw man link" LOL, if ever a link described your attempts here, i could'nt have chosen better myself.

 

At the end of the day, it dos'nt matter a toss to me if the USA get's a national health service or not. Where i live, we have had one for 60 years and regardless of what you say, IT WORKS. But i am genuinely concerned for the tens of millions of hard working US citizens that are denied FULL and PROPER healthcare by big bussiness and politicians with the same mindset as you.