32 Killed in Virginia Tech Shooting

[Silverfox]

as far as the number of murders in Texas vs Germany.... number of square miles means nothing when the population (including legal citizens, legal aliens and illegal aliens) is MUCH higher.

The population of texas is a quarter of germany

 

Texas is just under 21,000,000 while Germany is a massive 82,400,000

 

 

You cannot compare like for like in THAT sense.

[Verran]

They aren't going to step in a make it worse, despite being armed. It's human nature. The people who can will; the people who can't won't, no matter the tools available to them. Thus, I feel we should let the people (within reason) who want CCWs to get them.

I definitely see where you're coming from, but I just don't share your confidence in people's ability to make these decisions (or really in people in general). I think there are still a lot of people with hero complexes out there, or more confidence than they deserve. And I think that while a second gun in the right hands can diffuse a situation, one in the wrong hands can make it exponentially worse. That's why I think something like a psych exam should be a must.

 

In the last few years I have had at least three friends that have used rich or well connected parents and friends to "speed" their way through the process with little if any effort. I certainly agree with the right to arm oneself, but there should be more to it than that. There's too many crazies out there.

 

I wish those broadcasting companies would realize that reporting the news is one thing, but exploiting it for ratings is another.

Incredibly well said! In fact, your whole post was great, but I like this line the most.

[hockeyrcks9901]

Silverfox...no matter how well the education system is and no matter how well we try to raise people. We will NEVER remove all the criminals. People are criminals because a lot of the time they see that they can be. If you allow the public to arm themselves, then these people see that they won't get away with these crimes and won't commit them. Sure, raising children properly will remove a lot of the problem but you never be able to educate every person in America. You will always have people who want to commit crimes because it is the easy way. If you remove the ability for the public to have guns, then the criminals still have them and the public has no way to defend themselves. You will always have people who commit murder no matter how hard you try to raise them properly.

[Silverfox]

Silverfox...no matter how well the education system is and no matter how well we try to raise people. We will NEVER remove all the criminals. People are criminals because a lot of the time they see that they can be. If you allow the public to arm themselves, then these people see that they won't get away with these crimes and won't commit them. Sure, raising children properly will remove a lot of the problem but you never be able to educate every person in America. You will always have people who want to commit crimes because it is the easy way. If you remove the ability for the public to have guns, then the criminals still have them and the public has no way to defend themselves. You will always have people who commit murder no matter how hard you try to raise them properly.

 

Of course and I dont doubt that you are 100% correct.

 

But then that raises the whole issue about the society in which these people live in. You cannot deny that something is wrong when other nations do not suffer these same problems. I'm not suggesting this is only the US...gun crime in the UK is rife too...but we have to look at our society as a whole and really have a long hard look at what is wrong. In fact, it would be quicker to look at what is right, because there isn't much.

 

Arming the public is the response I would expect from someone who is already armed and feels comfort in this fact. I have no faith in such a plan as 'accidents' will always occur no matter how sane, trustworthy or reliable someone is. Everyone has a limit...

 

If people were taught the values of NOT being criminals, there would be no need to arm people to the teeth. This is a social responsibility that has been lost with generations ... just ask your parents and grandparents and it is crystal-clear to see, both in the US and the UK and many other countries too. It makes me feel very uneasy the more I think about it.

[hockeyrcks9901]

But other nations do suffer these problems. They just tend not to have the media that the United States has. And just so you know, I do not own any guns and I only have one knife which is at my house over 120 miles from where I currently live. The thing about older generations...I don't think that we could ever have what they did. There is such a split between the middle class and the lower class and people today are far less willing to work hard to achieve "stuff." Instead of hard work, they resort to crime and I don't think it is possible to ever make them see that stealing is wrong no matter how hard we try. They will just look at us and say "Why work hard when I can just take it for free?" I think your idea of educating people to cause them not to be criminals is a good idea but I don't see it as being practical.

[Silverfox]

But other nations do suffer these problems. They just tend not to have the media that the United States has.

 

They will just look at us and say "Why work hard when I can just take it for free?" I think your idea of educating people to cause them not to be criminals is a good idea but I don't see it as being practical.

 

 

But take the likes of Japan and Germany, Holland, Sweden and Norway etc etc ... equally as diverse and growing differences between middle and lower classes, as with many growing and prosperous capitalist nations. The fact that these countries do not suffer similar massacres would suggest that there is something inherently wrong with the moral stances of the countries that do (US/UK for example). It's not a case of the media sensationalising it all.

 

Recently, Denmark was deemed one of the most 'happy' countries to live live in and raise a family - full stop. This is evident if you have been there, but the country is not dissimilar to other Capitalist nations, but where it IS different, is in that the Danes have a long tradition of family values and excellent morals that make the natives that much more content with life. Crime is exceptionally low and the streets are clean. People are friendly and you can walk in the capital city at night without fear of being stabbed, shot or mugged. If you can justify any other reasons for this common trend in the Scandinavian region, I'm open to them. But notice a trend of all of these countries, and read the link I provided to Japanese gun crime too, that guns are practically non-existent.

 

"Why work when I can just take it for free?" Well then you have just summed up the diabolical attitude that is much more rare in other parts of the world. It's not a case of what is easiest. It's a case of what is morally right and wrong, regardless of ease. If a person of any age over 10 has not got at least a firm grasp of these morals, the world is in dire peril. Laws are in place for a reason. Without them, there is the obvious chaos that will result. Theft, murder and crime are not morally OR legally 'correct'. I'm by no means religious (far from it in fact), but these are the basics of being human.

 

If someone lacks the simple ability to be human, then you can't help but ask what has gone wrong and where.

 

(I really don't want to direct this at anyone in particular, I just want people to see this from another perspective!)

[Verran]

Silverfox... I was reading your post and nodding my head the whole time, but when I was done, I was thinking "Yeah, so?" I was wondering how that relates to the topic at hand, but that actually helped me kind of tie it all together.

 

It's yet another example of treating the symptoms, not the disease. It's like pumping your kid full of ritalin rather than facing the fact that you may be a poor parent. Arming our citizens may prevent crime to a certain degree, but it doesn't address the overall problem of diminishing moral values that have led to increased crime to begin with. And if we follow the trend to maturity, we get a nation of people armed to the teeth just itching to save the day. And the more we encourage regular joes to step in and use firepower to stop crime, the more common it will be for these "untrained cops" to make these situations escalate futher, or even worse, to misunderstand a situation and shot an innocent person.

[94Camaro]

I definitely see where you're coming from, but I just don't share your confidence in people's ability to make these decisions (or really in people in general). I think there are still a lot of people with hero complexes out there, or more confidence than they deserve. And I think that while a second gun in the right hands can diffuse a situation, one in the wrong hands can make it exponentially worse. That's why I think something like a psych exam should be a must.

I completely understand what you're saying, but in my experience, people with "hero complexes" are the ones who turn out to be cowards in a dangerous situation. And in such an event, a coward will keep his firearm hidden and the situation doesn't escalate.

And for the record, I have no problems with checks on people applying for a CCW, though a psych exam seems like overkill to me.

To me, the issue of gun control goes beyond CCW and handguns though. What I fear the most, is that the US will eventually ban guns altogether. People think the gov't is too controlling and invasive now, just wait until we're completely defenseless. Hitler was big on gun control, as was Stalin and of course, Hussein. Interesting how countries that have gun control keep ending up as dictatorships or police states isn't it?

 

 

But take the likes of Japan and Germany, Holland, Sweden and Norway etc etc ... equally as diverse and growing differences between middle and lower classes, as with many growing and prosperous capitalist nations. The fact that these countries do not suffer similar massacres would suggest that there is something inherently wrong with the moral stances of the countries that do (US/UK for example).

I totally agree with this statement Silverfox. In the UK, handguns are banned, in the US they are easily accessible, yet we both have the same problems. Maybe guns aren't the problem and we should stop trying to eliminate them?

Frankly, I don't know how to correct the moral stances of our countries. We've gone so far towards moral relativity and lack of personal responsibility in both countries, that I'm not sure how (or even if) we can recover.

[kingdingeling]

The population of texas is a quarter of germany

 

Texas is just under 21,000,000 while Germany is a massive 82,400,000

You cannot compare like for like in THAT sense.

 

Thank you very much silverfox! I doubt that there are 61 million illegal citizens in Texas!

 

Let me give you my first hand experience here, as I am just doing my Hunting License here in Germany. And YES, we do need to take a 4-6 month course, with weapon safety, what animals to shoot and which not to. First, its 560

[LoArmistead]

I was reading Verran's last post and I just couldn't help but think of the UT: Austin shooting in 1966. I remember watching the documentary on the History Channel about it, and once the shooting started, every redneck and good ol' boy in Travis County with a rifle and a scope was on the grounds of the campus taking potshots up at the shooter in the tower. I say arm America to the teeth!

 

No, but in all seriousness, verran has a point in that the real problem is rooted with the moral decay we are facing in this new generation - the breakup of the nuclear family, the politics of envy, parents simply not being parents - it all ties into one big hairy knot that is probably never going to be fixed. The answer to solve the problem is not to take guns away or to give guns to everyone, it's to grab the weed by the root and fix our society's moral corruption. Hell, From the 1950's and before, just about every able-bodied male who didn't live in the big city was armed. It was a way of life. We didn't have mass murders back then when it was commonplace for men to walk around with their pistol strapped proudly to their hip. That fact alone should tell us that guns are not the reason for these problems - it's the people who use them. There are special interests and politicians out there who would like us to think that our moral problems are not our fault, typically to advance their own political agenda, but the fact of the matter is that the gun problem in America is our fault as a society. We as a people have allowed this to happen to our own culture - a culture where a man walks into an Amish school house and murders a dozen kids, or a lone student barricades a lecture hall and kills 33 people. We are to blame, not the guns. These are problems that need to be addressed, but as long as we have people who are willing to believe the authorities when they say "It's not your fault, it's someone else's," we aren't going to make any progress.

[Verran]

No, but in all seriousnessclear family, the politics of envy, parents simply not being parents - it all ties into one big hairy knot that is probably never going to be fixed. The answer to solve the problem is not to take guns away or to give guns to everyone, it's to grab the weed by the root and fix our society's moral corruption. Hell, From the 1950's and before, just about every able-bodied male who didn't live in the big city was armed. It was a way of life. We didn't have mass murders back then when it was commonplace for men to walk around with their pistol strapped proudly to their hip. That fact alone should tell us that guns are not the reason for these problems - it's the people who use them. There are special interests and politicians out there who would like us to think that our moral problems are not our fault, typically to advance their own political agenda, but the fact of the matter is that the gun problem in America is our fault as a society. We as a people have allowed this to happen to our own culture - a culture where a man walks into an Amish school house and murders a dozen kids, or a lone student barricades a lecture hall and kills 33 people. We are to blame, not the guns. These are problems that need to be addressed, but as long as we have people who are willing to believe the authorities when they say "It's not your fault, it's someone else's," we aren't going to make any progress.

Good lord. Where is my "A-Freakin'-Men" emoticon when I need it!? Well said, sir!

 

@Camaro: I do agree that a lot of self-proclaimed "heroes" would never actually make a move. That's very true. I also like the point about dictators and anti-gun laws. Kind of a scary point, but it does make a lot of sense.

[kingdingeling]

I was reading Verran's last post and I just couldn't help but think of the UT: Austin shooting in 1966. I remember watching the documentary on the History Channel about it, and once the shooting started, every redneck and good ol' boy in Travis County with a rifle and a scope was on the grounds of the campus taking potshots up at the shooter in the tower. I say arm America to the teeth!

 

No, but in all seriousness, verran has a point in that the real problem is rooted with the moral decay we are facing in this new generation - the breakup of the nuclear family, the politics of envy, parents simply not being parents - it all ties into one big hairy knot that is probably never going to be fixed. The answer to solve the problem is not to take guns away or to give guns to everyone, it's to grab the weed by the root and fix our society's moral corruption. Hell, From the 1950's and before, just about every able-bodied male who didn't live in the big city was armed. It was a way of life. We didn't have mass murders back then when it was commonplace for men to walk around with their pistol strapped proudly to their hip. That fact alone should tell us that guns are not the reason for these problems - it's the people who use them. There are special interests and politicians out there who would like us to think that our moral problems are not our fault, typically to advance their own political agenda, but the fact of the matter is that the gun problem in America is our fault as a society. We as a people have allowed this to happen to our own culture - a culture where a man walks into an Amish school house and murders a dozen kids, or a lone student barricades a lecture hall and kills 33 people. We are to blame, not the guns. These are problems that need to be addressed, but as long as we have people who are willing to believe the authorities when they say "It's not your fault, it's someone else's," we aren't going to make any progress.

 

 

very well said!