Touted "Karajan audio" is the worst I've heard in 3 years

[red930]

Im actually running my antec sl350 in 20pin ATM... it does have its problems(once windows is installed, not a single thing, however), but I can't seem to max this PSU out.. (2400mhz right now)with the 24pin mod, however, my 5v jumper works..

 

I never imagined updating a PSU spec would be so confused over PC manufacturers -_-

dippy,

 

It all comes down to honesty. Whom do you trust? It seems the larger companies that have a reputation to uphold, are more trustworthy than the smaller ones.

 

I agree with AG, you don't trust anything until you get your hands on it. We learned a valuable lesson with the Skyhawk 570.

 

There also seems to be a lack of basic understanding of the specifications. I've seen more than one company rep from a very respected vendor say their PSU is BTX compliant. The only problem is that there is no BTX spec for PSUs. The BTX case spec calls for an ATX 12V 2.X power supply. If they say a PSU is BTX this or that, they're either misinformed or trying to BS you.

 

It's almost like they think they can blind us with a bunch of acronyms and we'll just buy into it.

 

Information is power.

[Nil Einne]

With all this talk about SoundStorm I think I should mention something. While not an expert, I did a fair amount of research in the day and there was and still seems to be a lot of confusion with regards to what SoundStorm is and isn't. SoundStorm was always a certification. You can consider it a sound solution perhaps. But it was not a sound module or audio processing unit or anything like that as a lot of people seem to think.

 

Specifically, SoundStorm was a certification Nvidia (together with Dolby) gave to mobo manufacturers who use their Nforce APU (audio processing unit). If I recall, it required them to provide discrete audio channels, SPDIF out and probably one or two things I forgot and also set minimum output ability (DAC available etc) and quality levels (in terms of S/N ratios etc) that these boards had to met.

 

Boards could have the Nforce APU but still not be SoundStorm if they were not certified by Nvidia. This would either mean one of two things. Either the manufacturers were not willing to pay for the certification or it failed one or more criteria that needed to be met.

 

The Nforce APU was what provided Dolby AC3 encoding and all the other digital processing aspects of the sound (effects etc). However all boards still needed a codec most used either a Realtek one or a Cmedia one. The codec was necessary for the output part, e.g. the DAC. Of course, any manufacturer who wanted to get SS certification would need to implement a solution, including choosing the right codec and the board layout necessary to achieve the characteristics necessary for SS. I assume Nvidia provided some recommendations and their reference boards would have shown how they implemented SS but it was up to the mobo manufacturers to implement it. Provided they implemented a system that satisfied the characteristics necessary for certification they could do whatever they wanted.

 

Nvidia has since apparently abandoned SS. They no longer do the certification for Nforce 3 or 4. I believe they've also drasticly reduced the functionality of the audio portion of their new chipsets (3 and 4) altho it still has decent functionality. It no longer does any AC3 encoding although I'm still a bit confused as to what the original Nforce APU did anyway. My understanding was most of the encoding needed to have already been done, it was intended for games and I guess was responsible for mixing and processing preencoded AC3 audio streams but I didn't look into this extensively so maybe I'm wrong in this area.

 

Therefore unless I'm wrong about the above, I don't see any reason any mobo manufacturer can't produce onboard audio as good as SoundStorm. Yes it won't have all the functionality of the old Nforce APU. And perhaps the old Nforce APU gave more attention to the digital processing side to produce quality sound. But it appears to me what we're mostly talking about here is specifically analog sound quality. In terms of analog quality, as I've said, the Nvidia portion had little to do with the quality. The codec and layout etc was what was necessary. Of course, they will not have reference boards to guide them and perhaps the requirements for producing Nforce3 and 4 boards make it more difficult to get it all right but I strongly suspect the main problem is manufacturers see no reason. They saw little reason for SoundStorm but at least that would give them something to advertise. Without anyone branding a solution/certification they don't have much. They could meet all the requirements/characteristics necessary for SoundStorm quality but how would they effectively advertise that their boards solution was better then brand XYZ? They can't.

[Sharp]

Hello,

 

You are right about the Soundstorm bit

 

The nvidia APU was a full hardware acclerated sound chip capable of many things.

http://3dsoundsurge.com/reviews/nForce/nForce.html

http://3dsoundsurge.com/reviews/nForce/nForce-p2.html

 

The realtek chips is a codec and with the use of software/drivers the EAX/number of voices is determined. So it is a software based sound card and it will use your CPU.

 

That is why the nVidia APU is so much better and it is a powerful APU too.

[daglesj]

For me it would be so much nicer if the onboard audio was just a good high quality 2 channel output. That would be enough then for folks who liked a bit of casual gaming or just wanted a reasonable audio setup from their PC for CD/DVD use.

 

Instead they supply units that try to be all things to all men and fail on nearly every front. Let Creative/Terratec/M-audio take the strain if folks want better all-round solutions.

[Nil Einne]

Sharp: I was well aware the APU was hardware accelerated as I mentioned several times but I was under the mistaken impression the new Nforce 3 and 4 chipsets still had some hardware accelerated functionality although not as fancy as the old APU. I looked further into this and I was wrong. The Nvidia chipset does have some audio functionality but it is still totally HSP. However this does mean that you can still use either Nvidia drivers or the codec drivers. Regardless tho, IMHO the HSP isn't really the issue for most of us.

 

In most cases, the CPU can more then handle it. If you've got a Athlon64 processor, in most current situations, it does not matter if you CPU takes a 5% hit due to the fact there is only minimal hardware acceleration. Perhaps for professionally musicians, extreme audiophiles, extreme gamers (who are capable or reaching the CPU as a limiting factor) and the like, there may be issues, especially due to latency issues, but I suspect for most of us normal users and even gamers, hardware acceleration is simply not necessary for audio. The system can more then handle it. However of course with any HSP system, the drivers are much more important. Perhaps this is a bigger issue. Neither the Nvidia drivers or the RealTek drivers are up to scratch.

 

Also don't forget that some games don't even use the hardware acceleration function. Doom3 didn't until Creative forced them to implement it due to some patent issue. JC didn't see it as necessary simply because the CPU hit was minimal. And I'm guessing in Doom3 is shouldn't matter whether you have hardware acceleration or not. Another example, if you're just playing a mp3/CD, in most cases you will not be doing much processing unless you apply effects which many of us do not.

 

My point is, as I've said, the quality is the bigger problem IMHO. Specifically DAC quality. As I've said, the DAC has always been handled by a codec regardless of whether it was with the Nvidia APU and SoundStorm or with our current setup. So IMHO, this is still the bigger issue. The original issue discussed in this thread was in fact a driver issue but this has been resolved. And most of the complaints I've looked at have tended to concentration on issues where the problem appears to be DAC quality NOT driver issues.

 

But another thing that I was wrong about apparently was the AC3 encoding function. A quick look at reviews you linked to suggest I was wrong, it works with any input and does not require any form of preencoded input.

 

P.S. As I've said DAC quality depends only on the codec and board layout etc.

[Natasyerp]

The sound is pretty decent I agree, but I also have lots of horrid crackling and pops in almost every game i load, other then that though its one of the better on board sound that ive heard.

[cmay119]

Well, I guess this is the time when I suggest going with a Soundcard that has the VIA Envy 25HT Chip on it. The Prodigy 7.1 and 7.1LT have this along with M-Audio Revolution 5.1/7.1 and I believe there are others. I absolutely love the card in my signature, I was originally using a Soundblaster Audigy1 MP3+ and this card blows it out of the water. Everything sounds so crisp, I can't say enough good things about it. I didn't go with a Creative card, because I think they are seriously overrated, expensive and their software is so bloated that I didn't even want to mess with it. I went with the prodigy over the revolution only because of more frequent driver updates. I'm sure the Revolution sounds just as good as the prodigy.

[sluggo]

Ditto on the Via chip. I'm using the cheapo Chaintech AV710 that uses the 24HT-S version of the Via chip and I've never had a quiter, cleaner output from a PC. The Wolfson DAC provides 192kHz sample rate with 24-bit resolution, and it's output is very, very good.

 

The driver also supports what's called "kernel streaming", where data is passed directly from the kernel to the optical S/PDIF port without getting resampled to 48kHz for use by Windows. Any resampling is done only if necessary by the receiving device.

 

It also supports 7.1 ouput and EAX2.0, and can usually be found new for $25 or so. Makes a big upgrade to Karajan for low dollars. Comes with an optical cable.

 

Another cheap upgrade is a used Santa Cruz card. Maybe $10 on ebay.

 

sluggo

[Ozymandias]

Karajan is the name of the daughter card configuration that moves the audio processor off of the motherboard. This is done to reduce or eliminate the circuit noise inherent in a modern motherboard.

 

That's the one area that I think Karajan is better than Soundstorm. With my old NF2 Infinity Ultra, everytime the HD was accessed, I would hear an annoying buzz in my headphones. Everytime I looked at a web page and scrolled with my mouse's wheel, I'd hear another noise. It started to annoy the hell out of me.

 

When I first got this mobo, I decided to try Karajan for a week, and then switch to my Audigy with Audigy 4 drivers (http://www.driverheaven.net/showthread.php?t=75905 for a guide, if you hate Creative's bloatware, pick 'drivers only' install option). Karajan was decent, but upon switching to the Audigy, I started to hear so many more things in both music and games that were just muted with the onboard sound. However, it is handy if something gets fried, and it's more than adequate for all of my younger siblings, who can't even tell the difference (saves my family a bundle too).

[Empyrean]

If you are talking about gaming sound than you probably want an Audigy. If you are talking about quality sound you need to look for an EMU or maybe one from M-Audio's professional line.

[Bacon-Bits]

I probly wont use the card although i did install it. i use a good head set. Picked it up from newegg for around 50 bucks, Its a Plantronics 500 http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?...N82E16826106012

 

good head phones =D

[daglesj]

I have the Plantronics 300 DSP headset and it is good kit also. Makes a fantastic internet telephone headset and the sound quality is very acceptable.