Seattle Airport Removes Christmas Trees

[bigred]

well it's interesting that people are getting bent out of shape here.

 

 

for starters I'm actually impressed by what the rabbi was asking for. EQUAL representation. he never asked to have the trees taken down in the first place. he showed respect towards the christain faith and the symbolism of the tree. I personally have no objections to what his original request is, and even as a catholic I'd be more than willing to support his request for EQUAL displays. It seems he'd still be upset at this action... or more so a lack of action on the airport's behalf.

 

 

and no I'd have no problem with symbols of any and all religions being put up. that's what this country was founded on... EQUAL rights. plus it's a nice change of pace on the eyes

 

 

 

"in god we trust" doesn't specify which version of god you may choose to put your faith in either!

[LoArmistead]

equal representation of what? I've yet to see any facts that a Christmas tree symbolizes the Christian religion. Look it up on wiki, the very first sentence of the history of the Christmas tree says

With likely origins in European pre-Christian pagan cultures, the Christmas tree has gained an extensive history and become a common sight during the winter season in numerous cultures

 

If anything, the dang tree is a sign of our consumerist culture, and nothing more. A Menorah, on the other hand, has everything to do with a religious holiday.

 

So bigred and clay are gonna be the first to sign the petition to have Moses hammered off the Supreme Court facade and rechisled to look like a Pat; No definitive facial characteristics that would make him look white or black or yellow, and a physical build that looks like neither a man nor a woman. Just an androgenous, alien-looking mammal It don't get more equal than that! But then the amphibians and the reptiles would want equal representation too... crap.

 

EDIT : And the reason these cases are so touchy is because, as I said earlier, they fall into the legal realm of a value judgement. Assuming a Christmas tree represents Christianity (which no one has been able to prove yet), any state or federal court must be permitted to allow all religions to post their symbols on public property. That's when we cross into the value judgement realm. Who is to define what religion can and cannot put their symbols on this public land? Muslims, Jews, Christians, all great. But what if the Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster wanted to hang their symbol on the walls of the air port? As long as it is not an illegal image, there is nothing the courts can do to stop it. What if a homeless guy in downtown Seattle decided to start a religion where their symbol was a pair of giant underwear? There is legally nothing that can be done to prohibit the posting of these symbols once one symbol is allowed. That's Democracy in action, and that's how the founding fathers wanted it to be. So think about this next time you say "We should let all the symbols in."

 

Now I know you guys like to be little open-minded progressives, but I do not want to see this on the walls on my public buildings.

 

[nan0click]

But you know in your heart of hearts the flying spaghetti monster is who created you and you should worship him for giving you life!

[ClayMeow]

I think that points out the concensus of the American people rather than the fact that Christians are a bunch of whiny babies.

Lo, you're looking at the wrong statistic here. You're taking the 95% that are fine with "Merry Christmas", but ignoring the problematic statistic that 33.3% have a problem with "Happy Holidays." That's the thing that points to the imbalance here. Most people have no problem with someone saying "Merry Christmas" to them even if that's not the holiday they celebrate, yet 1/3 have a problem with "Happy Holidays," which one could reasonably assume that the majority, if not all, of the 33% are Christians, because if most non-Christians were fine with "Merry Christmas," then they'd be fine with "Happy Holidays" as well. That's like saying, "we're better than you, so you should accept our holiday, and we shouldn't have to worry about anyone else's beliefs because they're not correct."

 

well it's interesting that people are getting bent out of shape here.

for starters I'm actually impressed by what the rabbi was asking for. EQUAL representation. he never asked to have the trees taken down in the first place. he showed respect towards the christain faith and the symbolism of the tree. I personally have no objections to what his original request is, and even as a catholic I'd be more than willing to support his request for EQUAL displays. It seems he'd still be upset at this action... or more so a lack of action on the airport's behalf.

and no I'd have no problem with symbols of any and all religions being put up. that's what this country was founded on... EQUAL rights. plus it's a nice change of pace on the eyes

"in god we trust" doesn't specify which version of god you may choose to put your faith in either!

Exactly my point.

[bigred]

Lo, better look at the root word of christ in christmas tree. in name alone it's a symbol of the christian holiday (the birth of christ). yes it does come from pagan practices that predate christianity... but so does 90% of the church's other practices.

 

 

now as far as the greetings for the holidays... I look at it this way. someone says "merry christmas", "happy hannukah" or what ever... I really don't care. what's important is they're conveying their wishes of good will towards me. the same good will they want. I think it's a good sign of respect.

 

 

I also think you missed the point of my statement about "in god we trust". I want it to stay! I think people need to look at in thier own eyes instead of slapping it on one religion. at no point is it stating WHICH god we trust in. each person has thier own view of who or what "god" is, and what it means to them. heck I don't give a care if you want to pray to a toilet seat... just don't tell others they're wrong or hurt anyone in the process and you're fine in my book.

[HoLoDreaM]

Wow. Christians got told, and they complain. What's new?

 

On the same note. I do believe that rabbi was rediculous for sueing, but since he is non-white he will get his way!

 

And I do believe everyone should be represented equally.. Why don't they just put a human? Oh no? We can't? Because we have a billion different races and walks of life. People complain. So we can't represent ourselves at all. Might as well put an alien on it.

 

They made a SMART decision removing the tree. I see no problem with any symbol. If I walk into a building with a big Buddha on it, I'm not going to complain, because the guy is representing himself in an art form. But dang would that be ugly to see everyone religious symbol stuck on one building.

 

BTW: I'm Atheist, and I have a Christmas tree...

Edited December 12, 2006 by HoLoDreaM

[Verran]

I've followed this thread since the first post and I still can't really figure out what I think about it. On one hand, I whole-heartedly agree with Clay that (in general) Christians are far less tolerant of other religions than any other, and I love nothing more than to see them forced to take their turn at the game of compromise.

 

But on the other hand, I can't blame them at all for just taking down the trees. I mean they go out of their way to decorate the place and make it "warm and cozy" and now they've got threats of lawsuits on their hands. They don't deserve that. And now, even if they put up an equal number of every type of decoration, you'll still get some a-hole crying because the menora is taller than the tree. It'll never end. You give them an inch and it'll turn into a mile. Sadly, they're better off just taking everything down.

 

I did find this quote rather repulsive though:

The rabbi had received "all kinds of calls and emails," many of them "odious," Grad said, adding he was "trying to figure out how this is consistent with the spirit of Christmas."

What jerk-hole comment to make. I guess I'm trying to figure out how lawsuits over the presence of a decorative pine tree is consistent with the spirit of Hannukah....

[LoArmistead]

Lo, better look at the root word of christ in christmas tree. in name alone it's a symbol of the christian holiday (the birth of christ). yes it does come from pagan practices that predate christianity... but so does 90% of the church's other practices.

 

I explained why this is so in one of my prior posts. Do not let the name 'christ'mas tree make you think it has anything to do with christianity. The only reason it is known as a christmas tree is because the holiday festivities surrounding a christmas tree coincide with the christmas holiday. It's simply a name for the tree that we put up during the holidays, and it has nothing to do with the Christian religion. To say otherwise is wrong. Yes, Christians put up Christmas trees, but so do agnostics such as myself, as well as atheists. That fact alone should make it clear that a christmas tree has nothing to do with Christianity. The word "Christmas" before "tree" is... I guess you would call it... a modifying adjective to describe what type of tree it is (the tree we put up during the Christmas season, as opposed to a regular tree that is growing wild out in the forest somewhere).

If it makes you feel better to say "holiday tree," though it sounds stupid, go right ahead and say it, but do not confuse christmas tree with the Christian celebration of Christmas.

 

now as far as the greetings for the holidays... I look at it this way. someone says "merry christmas", "happy hannukah" or what ever... I really don't care. what's important is they're conveying their wishes of good will towards me. the same good will they want. I think it's a good sign of respect.

Have a nice Ramadan. How was your pilgrimmage this year? :thumbs-up:

 

I also think you missed the point of my statement about "in god we trust". I want it to stay! I think people need to look at in thier own eyes instead of slapping it on one religion. at no point is it stating WHICH god we trust in. each person has thier own view of who or what "god" is, and what it means to them. heck I don't give a care if you want to pray to a toilet seat... just don't tell others they're wrong or hurt anyone in the process and you're fine in my book.

 

I understood what you meant by that, and I didn't mean to direct anything in my prevous post towards that comment.

[LoArmistead]

Lo, you're looking at the wrong statistic here. You're taking the 95% that are fine with "Merry Christmas", but ignoring the problematic statistic that 33.3% have a problem with "Happy Holidays." That's the thing that points to the imbalance here. Most people have no problem with someone saying "Merry Christmas" to them even if that's not the holiday they celebrate, yet 1/3 have a problem with "Happy Holidays," which one could reasonably assume that the majority, if not all, of the 33% are Christians, because if most non-Christians were fine with "Merry Christmas," then they'd be fine with "Happy Holidays" as well. That's like saying, "we're better than you, so you should accept our holiday, and we shouldn't have to worry about anyone else's beliefs because they're not correct."

Exactly my point.

 

I don't have a problem with someone wishing me happy holidays, but I think this all boils down to tradition. Back in the 50's when the boomers (a majority of the nation) were kids, there was absolutely no question about it... this is the Christmas season. Merry Christmas to all. It wasn't until recently (our generation) that "Christmas" became taboo, and we were taught to be an all-encompassing, all-accepting, open-minded little intellectuals. The apple doesn't fall far from the tree, and that 95% are people who didn't have to live in crappy times like these, people who grew up with "Merry Christmas" and "Christmas Tree" and see no problem with it. That will probably change, with the indoctrination that I'm seeing in schools today, by time I'm old and dying, kids are going to be calling them "Post-solstice winter celebration trees." But hey, you get what you wish for, right?

 

I do agree, though, that there are some super-anal christians out there and they need to shut the hell up. But then again, if you had thousands of people who made it their mission in life to silence any mention of your religion across the board, wouldn't you be on the defensive as well? I am not saying that they are in the right here, but I can at least understand where some of them are coming from in all this. For instance, the christians got their "Passion of the Christ" and their "Nativity Story," so why can't the other people have their "DaVinci code?" I don't understand why they are so up-in-arms over it. There's one big difference between them. The Passion of the Christ was real.... the DaVinci code is not. So what's the big deal?

[LoArmistead]

Here ya go clay and bigred. Religious neutrality. Your dreams have come true.

 

Pentagon Evangelism Called 'National Security Threat'

http://www.cnsnews.com/ViewCulture.asp?Pag...L20061212a.html

 

Now it's politically incorrect for military officers to express their belief in the christian God as it is a threat to our national security

 

Though you may not agree with those folks, I hope you understand how easy it is to place you in the same boat as them.

[ClayMeow]

I explained why this is so in one of my prior posts. Do not let the name 'christ'mas tree make you think it has anything to do with christianity. The only reason it is known as a christmas tree is because the holiday festivities surrounding a christmas tree coincide with the christmas holiday. It's simply a name for the tree that we put up during the holidays, and it has nothing to do with the Christian religion. To say otherwise is wrong. Yes, Christians put up Christmas trees, but so do agnostics such as myself, as well as atheists. That fact alone should make it clear that a christmas tree has nothing to do with Christianity. The word "Christmas" before "tree" is... I guess you would call it... a modifying adjective to describe what type of tree it is (the tree we put up during the Christmas season, as opposed to a regular tree that is growing wild out in the forest somewhere).

If it makes you feel better to say "holiday tree," though it sounds stupid, go right ahead and say it, but do not confuse christmas tree with the Christian celebration of Christmas.

Just because some people no longer associate a "Christmas tree" with Christianity, doesn't it make it any less associated. It may not have some ancient religious history to it, but that's because practically all of the Christian holidays got infected with commercialism. If they had statue of Santa Claus, would you say that has nothing to do with Christianity? Of course you wouldn't....but there's no historical religious significance there either...he was created by COCA-COLA! Again...commercialism. That doesn't mean that something isn't associated with a specific holiday, and thus with a specific religion.

 

You're right about tradition though...it is the close-mindedness that causes these problems...the ones that are SO religious that they're not open to anyone else's ideas or beliefs.

 

PS. I hate real pine Christmas trees anyways because I'm allergic

[ClayMeow]

Here ya go clay and bigred. Religious neutrality. Your dreams have come true.

http://www.cnsnews.com/ViewCulture.asp?Pag...L20061212a.html

 

Now it's politically incorrect for military officers to express their belief in the christian God as it is a threat to our national security

 

Though you may not agree with those folks, I hope you understand how easy it is to place you in the same boat as them.

Dude, how does that put bigred and I in the same boat as them exactly?! Did you even read it...it makes perfect sense that when you're attacking a predominantly muslim area, you don't want them thinking that it's christianity against islam. If you don't see that, then I think you need your head checked.