LoArmistead Posted May 7, 2009 Posted May 7, 2009 (edited) I think the point he's making is that if you ban them in New York state, they'll go to New Jersey. So when you ban them in the US, they'll go to Mexico or Canada. When you ban them there, they'll go to Columbia or Guam or New Guinea or something. It's basically a variation of the "if guns are outlawed only outlaws will have guns" point. Pretty close. What I was getting at is that they will still go to New Jersey, and even the back alleys of NYC to get them. The same way the criminals in Britain obtain their "illegal" hand guns. The only people who don't have them are the ones who want to abide by the law... which are typically the people who would be the least threat to society even if they did have a hand gun. The first assumption that needs to be thrown aside when we say, "we need to ban all guns," is that banning them automatically makes them inaccessible to the people in the affected area. It just isn't the case. Similar to the drug problem, banning guns in urban areas has succeeded in creating a very lucrative black market for guns, where people can sell them out of their cars and homes at very high premiums, which gives them more money to buy more, bigger, more powerful guns to sell to the public. Just like marijuana and cocaine, if there's a market for it,NO LAW will stop it from getting into peoples' hands. What's the answer to gun crime? It's obvious the legal aspect is a failure. Maybe we can try to tackle the social and moral aspect of it? As opposed to outlawing the activity (which creates an artificial market for it anyway - e.g. speeding, drugs - why do they do it? Because it's illegal... and they can...), maybe an educational approach like we've brought up in some of the past threads? Just a thought. Edited May 7, 2009 by LoArmistead Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Waco Posted May 7, 2009 Posted May 7, 2009 He who sacrifices freedom for security deserves neither. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
wevsspot Posted May 7, 2009 Posted May 7, 2009 Waco - you are a genius. Who else would quote Benjamin Franklin (not exactly but close enough!) They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety. BF Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Waco Posted May 7, 2009 Posted May 7, 2009 (edited) Waco - you are a genius. Who else would quote Benjamin Franklin (not exactly but close enough!) They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety. BF I was paraphrasing. I figured someone would point out that many may not find gun ownership an "essential liberty." Edited May 7, 2009 by Waco Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ClayMeow Posted May 7, 2009 Posted May 7, 2009 Pretty close. What I was getting at is that they will still go to New Jersey, and even the back alleys of NYC to get them. The same way the criminals in Britain obtain their "illegal" hand guns. The only people who don't have them are the ones who want to abide by the law... which are typically the people who would be the least threat to society even if they did have a hand gun. The first assumption that needs to be thrown aside when we say, "we need to ban all guns," is that banning them automatically makes them inaccessible to the people in the affected area. It just isn't the case. Similar to the drug problem, banning guns in urban areas has succeeded in creating a very lucrative black market for guns, where people can sell them out of their cars and homes at very high premiums, which gives them more money to buy more, bigger, more powerful guns to sell to the public. Just like marijuana and cocaine, if there's a market for it,NO LAW will stop it from getting into peoples' hands. What's the answer to gun crime? It's obvious the legal aspect is a failure. Maybe we can try to tackle the social and moral aspect of it? As opposed to outlawing the activity (which creates an artificial market for it anyway - e.g. speeding, drugs - why do they do it? Because it's illegal... and they can...), maybe an educational approach like we've brought up in some of the past threads? Just a thought. I didn't state that the federal govt has to ban guns, I stated that they need to have uniformed restrictions and regulations thru all states. There's a huge difference there. The reason why 85% of guns in NYC crimes come from out-of-state is not because guns can't be acquired in NY, but rather because it's EASIER to get them elsewhere, like in Virginia for example. The bill that was proposed (about the licensing for guns)...if that was only adopted by a few states, then it would never work. Only if that was a federal bill would something like that work. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Waco Posted May 7, 2009 Posted May 7, 2009 Only if that was a federal bill would something like that work. It doesn't matter, people that shouldn't have guns would just get them from somewhere else (Mexico, etc). Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ClayMeow Posted May 7, 2009 Posted May 7, 2009 It doesn't matter, people that shouldn't have guns would just get them from somewhere else (Mexico, etc). Which would make them harder to attain, so I fail to see your point. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Waco Posted May 7, 2009 Posted May 7, 2009 Which would make them harder to attain, so I fail to see your point. My point is that controlling guns is like controlling anything else; the government sucks at it. Look how incredibly easy it is to find illegal drugs in the US... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Verran Posted May 7, 2009 Posted May 7, 2009 The "War On Drugs" is a great example. Anyone who doesn't see that as an extraordinarily large joke has major perception issues. If we really are fighting a war on drugs, we're losing catastrophically and that's the way it's always going to be. A lot of that same mentality can apply to guns as well, but not all of it. I think a lot of people don't understand that a lot of the effects of bans and restrictions take time. You can't ban guns on Monday and claim the ban didn't work when someone gets shot on Friday. The time frames on stuff like that could be as big as to be generational, in reality. Plus, a lot of people who do drugs don't carry them on their person at all times (even a majority of the time), so there's that difference. If you want to carry a gun illegally, you're on the hook 24/7. If you want to smoke pot, you're on the hook for a few hours over at Billy's house while his parents are in Hawaii. That's a big difference. Personally, I don't think bans are the answer. If one came through I wouldn't really care much because I'm not a gun person but I do think there's better ways to handle it. I think they need to make them harder to get. The 2nd hand stuff is a big issue, but I also think carry permits and such should be harder to get. Here in Michigan, they seem to be a cakewalk. That's the part I don't like. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ClayMeow Posted May 7, 2009 Posted May 7, 2009 Personally, I don't think bans are the answer. If one came through I wouldn't really care much because I'm not a gun person but I do think there's better ways to handle it. I think they need to make them harder to get. The 2nd hand stuff is a big issue, but I also think carry permits and such should be harder to get. Here in Michigan, they seem to be a cakewalk. That's the part I don't like. My stance exactly. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kingfisher Posted May 7, 2009 Posted May 7, 2009 You are na Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Verran Posted May 7, 2009 Posted May 7, 2009 You are na Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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