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Dougman

Military Agreement

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@ Roadie, My friend if you can find me in the entire Muslim religion where it says to Kill the Infidel or behead people for crimes, or even that 70 virgin horseshit I'd be very impressed. Those people are a criminal element and has got damn all to do with the Muslim religion. I am not a Muslim, I don't even believe in a god or gods and I damn sure won't let any religion dictate what kind of person I am or how I should feel about another race of people.

 

Should a person on the other side of the world think that because in America kids go into schools and kill as many other kids as possible that its actually an American pastime to murder innocent school children, and that Americans agree with such an act? of course not so why should you think that an entire country would agree with what Muslim extremists do and have to be bombed into submission killing everyone but the extremists.

 

I am not a liberal pacifist who would rather hug than fight. We, the UK & US have these special forces that we boast about day in and day out. If we know who these extremists are they why not send an SAS troop in there and waste them and be back home in time for dinner? I mean if its only a few people then where is the logic in killing hundreds of thousands of people in order to get a handful?

 

Muslim extremists were invented by the people you have so much blind respect for. When they were fighting communist Russia it was ok for the CIA to train them in terrorist tactics to do as much damage as possible but now we are all paying the price, do you think they would just stop now they know how to do this and when the US pisses them off they are not going to use those tactics against them too.

 

There you go again mentioning Iran,China,Venezuela out of all the nations in the world you pick those that have OBVIOUS problems. What about Ireland, France, Germany, Sweden, Denmark, Italy, Finland, Switzerland, Iceland, Spain, Portugal but im sure you think that "Europe" is one country, and lets not forget Canada why don't terrorists constantly attack their way of life and bomb the hell out of Canadians? because their government doesn't commit unseen atrocities around the world in the name of "freedom". Their people are not so blinded by what they can get that they would step on anyone to get it, I think people here need to take a leaf out of the Canadian book. They are a strong people living right next door to here yet they seem to be on the whole "educated" in more than just movies, prom night, xboxes, ps3's, Harley's, beer and who has the best butt Beyonce or J lo...when its clearly Beyonce.

 

Every place has its problems but don't think for one second that America has given the world anything more than the next nation, Freedom? A state of mind completely unattainable never has existed nor probably ever will, but some people are still more "free" than others here aren't they. How can you talk about spreading freedom and democracy around the world when both are hanging by a thread here.

 

I lived in Northern Ireland for 30 years, born there, I have witnessed the bombs the shootings, punishment beatings, Army on the streets 24/7/365 military choppers over head, been shot at from the age of 9 years old, got kidnapped once for a short time by a terrorist organization and held at gunpoint in a field for 5 hours face down in the dirt in the middle of November (cold). My country had a terrorist war so I know so much more than you about what a terrorists is, and it kept going from the late 60's right into the 90's where the only thing to stop it was the "people" questioning why they were hating people they had never met.

 

The whole stance of not negotiating with terrorists is just fuel for the fire, now the political wings of both paramilitary organizations sit around the table and the killings and bombings stopped. So you want to feel safer around the world for you and other Americans? then stop treating the rest of the world and their way of life like its something you stood in.

 

If everything is fine for you in todays world then I truly am happy for you, if you don't see things that just don't add up then I envy you for the tranquility that must be your state of mind.

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@ Roadie, im sure you think that "Europe" is one country,

 

Once again a personal attack that simply shows your arrogance. Don't pretend you're smarter or better than me. It just makes you look stupid in your own words.

 

Muslim extremists were invented by the people you have so much blind respect for. When they were fighting communist Russia it was ok for the CIA to train them in terrorist tactics to do as much damage as possible but now we are all paying the price, do you think they would just stop now they know how to do this and when the US pisses them off they are not going to use those tactics against them too.

 

Once again your information is simply wrong. Muslim extremist have been around for over a thousand years.

 

Sure we've helped train others to help them defeat an enemy, It's called helping others and it's one thing the US does really well. Afghanistan was a "free" country invaded by the communist Soviet Union. We helped free people fight against communist.

 

Sure some Afghans ended up being power mad bullies intent on spreading their extreme religious view on their fellow citizens but that's simply bad people taking advantage of others.

 

To quote a well known Muslim extremist from that era...

We call you to be a people of manners, principles, honour, and purity; to reject the immoral acts of fornication, homosexuality, intoxicants, gambling's, and trading with interest ... You separate religion from your policies, ... You are the nation that permits Usury, which has been forbidden by all the religions ... You are a nation that permits the production, trading and usage of intoxicants ... You are a nation that permits acts of immorality ... You are a nation that permits gambling in its all forms. ... You use women to serve passengers, visitors, and strangers to increase your profit margins. You then rant that you support the liberation of women.

 

That guy bin Laden is point blank saying that the US just plain rotten to the core and must be destroyed. But I find it interesting that he condemns most of the liberal ideals promoted by the secular progressives and drive-by-media that are doing their best to undermine the President for their own political gains.

 

So. you see, it has nothing to do with what the US has done anywhere in the world. They want to see everyone that they disagree with wiped off the face of the earth. Trying to make this an issue about America or Americans is simply falling-in with the same people that hate America.

 

Should a person on the other side of the world think that because in America kids go into schools and kill as many other kids as possible that its actually an American pastime to murder innocent school children, and that Americans agree with such an act? of course not so why should you think that an entire country would agree with what Muslim extremists do and have to be bombed into submission killing everyone but the extremists.

 

This is called equivocation and you didn't do a really good job of it to say the least. It lends credence to my theory that you are just parroting the information you get from others that hate America. I could be wrong but the evidence is starting to build.

 

Freedom? A state of mind completely unattainable never has existed nor probably ever will, but some people are still more "free" than others here aren't they.

 

Why don't you tell that to the people of every country fighting to end the reign of their current dictator.

 

And yes, some people are more "free" than others. At last count there are 193 recognized "nation states". But lets just look at the nations that call themselves Communist. The Peoples Republic of China, Republic of Cuba, Democratic People's Republic of Korea(North Korea), Lao People's Democratic Republic, Socialist Republic of Vietnam, Cyprus and Moldova. That totals five communist countries out of almost 200 current nation states.

 

But, the year I was born there were 27 communist countries down from a high of 31 at the turn of the last century. In every situation the people of these countries required outside help in overthrowing their overlords.

 

The US and Americans have been helpful if not instrumental in an almost 80% reduction in the number of communist countries in a little under 50 years. Impressive.

 

Shame on you for condemning another person to live without the freedoms you enjoy. Simply shameful!

 

Now, get back to your studies and learn about history that isn't influenced by the secular progressive agenda.

 

I'll still be here waiting to debate you on your findings unless you find you actually agree with me.

 

Always looking out for you,

 

ExRoadie

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Why don't you tell that to the people of every country fighting to end the reign of their current dictator.

 

And yes, some people are more "free" than others. At last count there are 193 recognized "nation states". But lets just look at the nations that call themselves Communist. The Peoples Republic of China, Republic of Cuba, Democratic People's Republic of Korea(North Korea), Lao People's Democratic Republic, Socialist Republic of Vietnam, Cyprus and Moldova. That totals five communist countries out of almost 200 current nation states.

 

The US and Americans have been helpful if not instrumental in an almost 80% reduction in the number of communist countries in a little under 50 years. Impressive.

ExRoadie

 

Whoever made the United States the enforcer of who should or should not be communist?

 

Whoever made the United States the enforcer of who should or should not be muslim?

 

By arbitrarily meddling and invading other countries on what you "believe" is against your principles, you devoid these countries of the very freedom you claim you fight for...

 

Shame on YOU for thinking for a second you can go and barging in anybody's backyard

 

if it were someone barging in your house's backyard, I think you would shoot the person on the spot, defending your property no questions asked

 

Being a military superpower doesn't give you the right to do as you see fit on other countries businesses

 

Abusing your status as a military superpower across the globe is the VERY reason why you are targets to terrorism...

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Wow! This threads gone WAY off topic... ^ that post is ridiculous and doesn't even get a reply...

 

I want to point something out about the OP... The presidential directive that's linked is from May 07, and is just instructing the different branches of our government to have plans for continuity in an Emergency. There's nothing wrong with that unless you're planning on overthrowing the government when they're distracted with an emergency...

 

The other link, the "military agreement" doesn't order, or suggest that our military act as law enforcement. The agreement allows the use of the other's military resources (money, personnel) to overcome the emergency... they'd be acting under orders of the host country's own leaders... at least that's how I understood the agreement.

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Well i have been reading this and re-reading this whole thread again and again.

And although i realize its a big issue now with the elections going on in the states, i do want to point out the following:

 

I know you all arent stupid and even if you dont go punctuations all the time still there is no need to keep getting personal.

Secondly i have a feeling this thread might have some potential as to discussing the things we are discussing rightnow, again a but on my part and prob the reason there is an rule on this...Keep it nice, dont get personal and stay polite!

 

If however im wrong, doubt it, but you never know with me ;) then ill be back appologizing in person but for now i urge you all to tone it down a tad, so we can go back to actually have a adult convo about these things.

 

 

Sure, or sides on any given debate. For/against the war, universal healthcare, environmental issues, anything really. :)

 

I'd actually just like to compile a list of things that people want to see in this country, I'm curious because we all have different backgrounds and want to see different things or have differing perspectives on issues that we might not even consider an issue, per se.

 

:angel:

 

So to try and have a decent adult convo here ill start off by replying to this one

 

The war.

 

I am against the whole lets help the world.

Dont get me wrong ill help anyone if needed to but here is the thing,

If we think back to ww2 hollands position was the one of where we needed the help.

From the states, and we are gratefull for it, or atleast half my family is anyway.

At the same time the states where the help givers.

Now after so many years there is this differnce in some things.

Healthcare for us is like; you pick a compagnie and pay alot of money and then your sorted.

Somehow you apperantly have a system that is getting out of controle.

With our system btw its mandatory to have healtcare and a house( rent or buy) otherwise you get into to trouble with the gov here.

Now its great that the states are able to keep helping country's where there is an problem, but do not forget to keep your own stuff working. Education and healthcare isnt all that i have been told in comparison with other countries.

Secondly i can see there might be confusion about europe as to beeing 1 country and it aint all that stupid either.

Europe consists of 26 irrc countries, might be an country of btw.

But since the gov. nutheads tried to make one goverment for europe i can see the confusion, lets just say its a thin line..

 

So to keep it short, keep your own backyard nice and dandy before you come over to clean mine.

If then you do (read the us does) do not be surprised that the natives dont like that.

In essence it is their homeland, lol would be something to get to the states and start cleaning house since its a mess there anyway.

Dont think many americans would happely welcome us:)

 

Thats kinda my stand on things:)

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Dan, the biggest way to change America for the better is to downsize the government.

Government is not here to hold our hands and make life easier, I was always taught you make your own life, live it in a free country and the sky is the limit.

Getting rid of lobbyists would be a good start.

 

Agreed.

 

Fully agree with you Dan. By the way, it's not just the compacts that get high mpg's. The Golf TDI i refered to seats 5 and has a boot. It's not a small engine either, 1.9 diesel. The newer generation of diesels coming on stream now, do even higher mpg's than my current one.

 

Touche, I forgot about the diesels. It seems they are looked down upon here as I assume people remember the old dirty diesels of the past. Seeing how diesel is more 'crude' isn't it cheaper to make too? Utilizing it more may be a good stepping point.

 

Whoever made the United States the enforcer of who should or should not be communist?

 

Whoever made the United States the enforcer of who should or should not be muslim?

 

By arbitrarily meddling and invading other countries on what you "believe" is against your principles, you devoid these countries of the very freedom you claim you fight for...

 

Shame on YOU for thinking for a second you can go and barging in anybody's backyard

 

if it were someone barging in your house's backyard, I think you would shoot the person on the spot, defending your property no questions asked

 

Being a military superpower doesn't give you the right to do as you see fit on other countries businesses

 

Abusing your status as a military superpower across the globe is the VERY reason why you are targets to terrorism...

 

Isolationist thinking is certainly popular these days. No, I don't think we should go "barging in" when we have no business being in another country. However, when people there clearly could use our help and we have the capability to do so, would we really be in the right to NOT help?

 

Edit: That isn't to say that the US should be the one to do it though. Personally I'd like to see the UN grow some balls.

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I don't hate America, I have never said that in any post I have made in this section. This is how people pigeon hole anyone who disagrees with their country, and then the next line will read if you don't like it get the hell out, I think some people should have those words printed on their foreheads as they love to use them so much.

 

Those freedoms "you" (collectively not personally) love so much are slowly being dismantled, as too much freedom in the hands of the people make a governments job all that much harder.

 

I bet if we gave every Iraqi the choice of the way things used to be versus the way they are now there wouldn't be much support for it, but its a whole hindsight argument that people will say "Oh how could we know this or that could happen" well these people who conducted this war and others know exactly what happens in these situations its their job and they are pretty damn good at it.

 

Its none of our business to remove dictators or to secretly trained rebels to fight an enemy that we are too cowardly to fight our selves. You can disagree with China all you want, hell you can even hate them as much as you want but America will never declare war on them as they wont on America cause it would mean the end of them both, So they will do what the USA and Russia did and just fight little wars though other countries selling them weapons while their country is taking the flak. when all each other wants is to destabilize the other into economic ruin.

 

What I would want for America? lets see Complete and utter freedom of information for the people who actually should be the ones controlling the country. Civil authorities should be the ones conducting investigations into terrorists because if they are innocent then the public should know and if they are guilty then the public should also know the facts. In a military investigation they would just be released with no apology for the gross violations to their person or never heard from again. Guantanamo prison is a out and out crime and who ever agreed to that has no association with the words Freedom or Democracy.

 

I am simply amazed that you (Personally not collectively) are impressed by making 80% of these countries bend to your way of freedom, is it in the name of freedom to make anyone do anything against their will. Its not freedom and democracy we are bringing to these countries its the means for the companies here that are just itching to get into other nations they weren't allowed into before to make even more insane amounts of money.

 

I will agree with you on one thing like extremist being quite f****d up in the head and anyone who supports them, notice I didn't mention Muslim in that statement cause they don't have the monopoly on it. They are every where and they have the Bible as well as the Koran in their hands.

 

The only shame I feel my friend is by believing everything that was told to me growing up without thinking about it first. Religion, War, Poverty, Politics all has huge holes and contradictions for me today to just swallow because the next person does and no one that throws national pride in my face to shut me up has a hope in hell of doing so.

 

I like a lot of other people was in full support of this war when Iraq invaded Kuwait then it was for something and to me it seemed like their government cried out for help and we were there to help them. done and dusted we will help you. but seeing all the BS that gets spoken one day and then refuted the next by the same people. Saddam is under control he has no more weapons that will do us any harm, Saddam has WMD's and can attack us within 45 minutes. I just got sick of being lied to right to my face and I started to hear other people's views on things. Im am in the process of asking questions about everything about our state of freedom or security today.

 

I personally feel terrible for these people, that some might just term them "Casualties of War". To me a casualties of war is the odd innocent bystander that accidentally gets killed in the crossfire. But holy crap man, hundreds of thousands of men women and children are dead because of the "freedom" you (collectively) want them to have. Does that honestly make you feel good inside?

 

Sorry also for using the term "you" as in your first quote of your post, I forget to distinguish it between You a person and You the United states of America's general population. Like when I have to constantly tell everyone in the US that there is no country called the "UK" and they say where are you from, I say Northern Ireland and they say ooh your Irish how can you be British? and then I have to go through the whole explanation of how the UK is 4 countries and how everyone in England is still English and Scotland is still Scottish and Wales is still welsh and from Northern Ireland is still Irish, but together we are British. And all I hear is how Americans love Europe and how they had an awesome vacation in Europe and aren't European cars and buildings tiny and cute and how they never say the country in question rather than just term them all together as Europe.

 

I know by reading many many of your previous post that you are a very well educated fella, so that was not intended arrogance on my part, I personally do not talk down to people.

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Isolationist thinking is certainly popular these days. No, I don't think we should go "barging in" when we have no business being in another country. However, when people there clearly could use our help and we have the capability to do so, would we really be in the right to NOT help?

 

Edit: That isn't to say that the US should be the one to do it though. Personally I'd like to see the UN grow some balls.

 

When people need help of course it should be done

Agree with you there...

 

My problem is that the UN doesn't even have a chance to show some "balls" as you put it, since before anything can be done, the U.S. decides to go in and do it themselves because they can...

And I think that's a very wrong thing to do

 

With being the military power comes great responsibility and it should be used when and only when it's necessary...

 

Let me ask you something Dan...you seem like a very smart guy, do you honestly believe in any of that Weapons of mass destruction crap?

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When people need help of course it should be done

Agree with you there...

 

My problem is that the UN doesn't even have a chance to show some "balls" as you put it, since before anything can be done, the U.S. decides to go in and do it themselves because they can...

And I think that's a very wrong thing to do

 

With being the military power comes great responsibility and it should be used when and only when it's necessary...

 

Let me ask you something Dan...you seem like a very smart guy, do you honestly believe in any of that Weapons of mass destruction crap?

 

Well, by "balls" I mean actually becoming an entity that has the power to tell America to shut the xxxx up and sit down when it gets all huffy. But part of the problem is they're very, very slow to accomplish something as serious as sending troops in if it needs to be done. And if they do it's always in the "peacekeeping" sense, meaning they aren't there to fight anyone, just to protect others. That's all well and good in some cases, but it's hardly a way to change the way things are. Think about the genocides across Africa, what a wasted effort. I think this inaction is a large part of why the US steps up and does it's own thing when it probably shouldn't.

 

What is there to believe about that "crap"? I believe that originally it was entirely believable that there were weapons there given that Saddam didn't really try to hide the fact that he wanted them, was trying to develop them, and trying to purchase the materials needed for them. So do I believe that (at least originally) the government thought there were weapons over there? Yes, I think it's entirely believable.

 

With the knowledge that Saddam has wanted to get these weapons, and various reports about the necessary materials possibly being in his hands, can you justify any inaction in that? Meaning that if we weren't sure and didn't do anything about it, that failure to act may end up in a LOT a deaths? Intelligence isn't cut and dried, best guesses have to be used sometimes. And sometimes, with something as serious as weapons that can kill hundreds of thousands in one go, playing it safe becomes the only action you have.

 

Now, do i believe that they carried on with the "WMD" bit too long? Yeah. Do I think reporting it as fact was wrong? Definitely. What I would have said would have been along the lines of "we've had multiple reports that materials for the building of weapons of mass destruction have been attained by the Iraqi regime." At least then it wouldn't be lying, and not nearly as embarrassing once you get there and don't find that.

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"Come on man, put you your dukes and fire away with your notions of how the world really works. You should find lots of ammunition available from the drive-by-media."

--------------------

Drive by media? Lol...so much for independent journalism with integrity, or university teachers that have won nobel peace prizes or political science majors who spent small fortunes on their education and years of research, to win pulitzer prizes for excellance and integrity in journalism. i guess i gotta watch more fox noise and Bill Orally. Oh, and the ever worldly load mouthed hannity, and maybe a little rush-in -limboland.

------------------------

"But let me warn you. I've been around the world three times and have read many more books and magazines than anyone I know."

------------------------------

Wow! If that isn't a self serving, congratulatory pat on your own back, not to mention a seriously dillusional statement, then i don't know what is.

You are, in effect, saying you are more informed than anyone. You need counciling.

---------------------

Roadie to Branjo;"Once again a personal attack that simply shows your arrogance. Don't pretend you're smarter or better than me. It just makes you look stupid in your own words."

-------------------

No superior attitude here! Branjo, really, did you honestly think you might know something or are entitled to a different belief than Roadies?

You still don't realize that he is always right?

--------------------

Travis was never more right than when he said; "Let's not talk about any of those things, Jaz because according to I've-Got-A-Rebuttal-For-Everything-ExRoadie, we are all stupid and he is right 100% of the time."

 

Ps...I had a lot more statements to quote, but thought this was sufficient.

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Travis was never more right than when he said; "Let's not talk about any of those things, Jaz because according to I've-Got-A-Rebuttal-For-Everything-ExRoadie, we are all stupid and he is right 100% of the time."

 

VERY TRUE.....

(EDIT: should add...dont know if Ex is 100% right...but the point was...)

 

We are all stupid.... we all believe things we shouldnt...we all rely on slanted media for our news...

 

WE ALL are quick to point the finger and any one but ourselves...it's always someone elses fault...

 

WE are ALL too quick to say if you aint on one side you're the enemy...democrat vs repulican vs liberal.... wtf really cares...?

 

I thing anyone that says we need more mandates on issues but doesnt really car about the cost of the product at hand doesnt really get the point....

 

 

We are ALL too quick to label people for political or non-political involvement...

 

We all do the same thing when it comes to Americans...or Immigrants...

 

If someone tries to differentiate the difference between two American people by color they are automatically labeled a Racist....WRONG

 

So would that make me a Racist because I differentiate computers by color or by name...? I think not...

 

People you gotta understand...voicing you bull crap opinions in this thread doesnt fix the problems...never will..all it does is stir up heated debate...

 

Which isnt all bad because then we all show each other just how stupid we all really are (myself included)

 

There are some good ideas here like getting rid of Lobbyist would be a huge start...then start by weeding out useless government help...Downsize polititions in office...

 

Do you know just about all politions receive the same pay after they are out of office till they DIE then their spouse receive benefits till she DIES...

 

Who Pays for that...we do...nice huh?

 

CUT THESE GUYS OFF AFTER THEIR TERM IS OVER....classy lady about lazy people here in the states not wanting to work to recieve pay...then classy lady about government workers who accept the pay after their term is over and full benefits....because cause in all actuality they are no better than the people on WELFARE...they just receive more and for longer....

 

Any one who thinks thats different that welfare is a bigger dumbass they they admit too...this is the reason I loathe politics....

 

We have more government workers milking the system all the way from City, State and Federal it makes me sick that I pay for this...

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Do you know just about all politions receive the same pay after they are out of office till they DIE then their spouse receive benefits till she DIES...

 

Hypocrites the lot of them.

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