Reasons for piracy

[Deathmineral]

First off piracy is a bad term invented by the government to strike fear into ignorant people, just like calling women and children in Iraq "Insurgents". Second I do believe that stealing music and movies is bad but need to evolve in the way its PRICED and DISTRIBUTED. IMO iTunes has fixed this mostly with music but not with movies by making music more affordable and better distributed via the "pay per song" method. I'd like to see all movies sold for 9.99 SD and 13.99 HD because I feels it's a fair price point for not having a hard disc and box.

 

Now on to games. crap em! Developers pull some of the most greedy and deceptive techniques to make more and more $$$. So before I pay outrageous prices, and I do have like 20 games on steam alone..not to mention origin, I will get my damn demo!

Well I totally agree with you on every point except for iTunes. In my opinion, iTunes is one of the absolute worst things to ever happen in the music industry for the customer, it is riddled with DRM and the software is some of the worst around.

 

A good example of great music distribution is Amazon, they offer great prices and it's DRM free. The only possible downside to Amazon is that they don't offer highest quality possible, and while I wish they did, I don't hold it against them because they still offer high quality MP3s.

[Waco]

You are correct in the fact that there are a ton of what if scenarios but the same can be said for murder, or any other crime.

It's not a crime then is it? Just like I don't believe many downloads are piracy.

 

I'll be honest, I've downloaded games to try them out. I've also gotten bored of them within hours, and subsequently never touched them again. Had I actually paid money for those games I would have been completely pissed off and wouldn't have bought something else in the future (net result: the same as if I hadn't downloaded anything to begin with).

 

I've also downloaded games and absolutely LOVED them. You know what I did then? Bought them. Net result? I spent money I wasn't even planning on spending. "Piracy" can certainly give as much as it takes, IMHO. Heck, Minecraft is a perfect example of this. Pretty much anyone who downloaded it, who would have ever paid for it, has paid for it.

 

 

What we are talking about here is not getting a working copy of something you legally own but taking something you do not. THAT is theft pure and simple.

It's not theft, but I'm not going down that road again.

 

 

Also you are talking a lot about ancient history, in today's internet the excuses of old do not hold up because the needs that might have been a reasonable explanation in the day do not exist today.

What are you talking about? What did I talk about that's ancient history???

[Coors]

Minecraft is a perfect example of this. Pretty much anyone who downloaded it, who would have ever paid for it, has paid for it.

 

The first two times I tried to buy minecraft I wasn't able to. The first time I think it was when they were hacked and the site was completely down. So I pirated it so I could try it out. Played it a bit and got bored and didn't touch it again for months. Until back in December I was back home and my cousins wanted me to get it and play with them. So I go to the site and it's slow as dog .. If even the home paged loaded it would take 10 tries and after it did finally load after a minute or two of loading. Going to the next page to register was the same thing. Another ten failed loads until I finally gave up and pirated it again and played it. Wasn't until a few days later the website was better and I could buy it. Had I never pirated it I probably never would have spent the $25 on it after both of those experiences of not being able to even register on their site.

[Waco]

Minecraft.net is indeed a pretty unstable site at times. I bought it waaaaay back when it was in alpha and it was difficult to register even then.

[bilcliff]

I'm not saying it makes it right - just that it's not similar to stealing in any way. Nobody is deprived of anything except in the case where someone could afford to actually buy the material in the first place AND had the intent to pay for it as well.

I've got an interesting question for you Waco. If no-one is being deprived of anything then why are the pirates allowed to reap the benefit of something they are not entitled to? I agree with you that if they never had the Intent to pay for it, it is therefore not a lost sale. But the pirates are gaining the benefit of watching that movie/ playing that game/ listening to that music, without paying for the entitlement. I know you're not advocating piracy, i'm just posing a question.

 

Thanks for the link and info on the aXXo interview, that's pretty much what I was looking for last night but couldn't think of how to find it, though now it's terribly obvious that it was really easy to find. Specifically though, aXXo's answer to the first question is what I wanted to see. Like I've said before, I've uploaded my own torrents in the past and the reason he gave is pretty much my reason as well, though mine is along the lines of saving others hours of work I did to hunt down the material.

 

Basically though, I look at piracy as a form of generosity, and it's because I see it that way that I believe piracy to be one of humanities best inventions ever. I mean if you think about everything you learn throughout your life, where did you usually learn some of the most important lessons you will ever know? Probably kindergarten, I remember in kindergarten, the number one lessons were always "learn to share" and "treat others how you would like to be treated" and I think piracy is the best example of how as adults, we're following these basic but important teachings. That's why it's hard for me to view piracy as a bad thing.

Not to put words in your mouth, you sort of see it as a "modern day robin hood" if you will. taking from the rich multi-billion dollar corporations and giving to those who cannot necessarily afford it. Here is an interesting proposition, I think that a person's socio-economic status would impact / reflect their views on piracy in a similar sense to that of the old Robbin Hood. Now i'm not saying that if you're poor you will see it as more acceptable to pirate. But i'm saying its a matter of perspective, to the King, Robin Hood was a criminal. But to the poor citizens, he was a hero. now replace the word "King" with "Corporations", and the word "Robin Hood" with pirates, you see what i'm getting at here. Its all about perspective. Note: I'm not condoning it im just trying to understand why it happens

 

A random thought on the issue as a whole, aside from the occasional developer, when do you ever hear the little man complain about piracy? and by little man i mean the actual artist instead of the RIAA or the music label/publisher. The actor / movie director instead of the hollywood studio. To me it always seems to be the "big fat cats" who cant line their suits with more $100 bills.

 

The best example I can think of is Trent Reznor / Nine Inch Nails. He/they released the 2008 album "The Slip" to download for free. Here is an old-ish (2007) article where he admits to stealing music and how he gets pissed off at the mark-up the label charges for his work. He even went as far as encouraging people to

"Steal it. Steal away. Steal, steal and steal some more and give it to all your friends and keep on stealing,"

...

"Because one way or another these mother f---ers will get it through their head that they're ripping people off and that's not right."

 

Looking back over my post i realise it can be seen as having contradictory views on the topic, but i'm not trying to make an argument for either side, but rather trying to encourage a different perspective of thought / encourage further discussion

 

I get a kick out of that video every time I see because of what she says at 0:40.

Is it wrong that i have the chorus of that song as my ringtone?

 

EDIT: just after i clicked post i watched this week's Jimquisition. Which coincidentally covers piracy / copyright. Video is very much NSFW.

Edited January 24, 2012 by bilcliff

[Locutus]

One of my favorite shows wasn't available here in the states at all because it's a show from the UK.

 

Now they have it on Hulu Plus, and I'll deal with commercials for a good show.

[Deathmineral]

I've got an interesting question for you Waco. If no-one is being deprived of anything then why are the pirates allowed to reap the benefit of something they are not entitled to? I agree with you that if they never had the Intent to pay for it, it is therefore not a lost sale. But the pirates are gaining the benefit of watching that movie/ playing that game/ listening to that music, without paying for the entitlement. I know you're not advocating piracy, i'm just posing a question.

 

 

Not to put words in your mouth, you sort of see it as a "modern day robin hood" if you will. taking from the rich multi-billion dollar corporations and giving to those who cannot necessarily afford it. Here is an interesting proposition, I think that a person's socio-economic status would impact / reflect their views on piracy in a similar sense to that of the old Robbin Hood. Now i'm not saying that if you're poor you will see it as more acceptable to pirate. But i'm saying its a matter of perspective, to the King, Robin Hood was a criminal. But to the poor citizens, he was a hero. now replace the word "King" with "Corporations", and the word "Robin Hood" with pirates, you see what i'm getting at here. Its all about perspective. Note: I'm not condoning it im just trying to understand why it happens

 

A random thought on the issue as a whole, aside from the occasional developer, when do you ever hear the little man complain about piracy? and by little man i mean the actual artist instead of the RIAA or the music label/publisher. The actor / movie director instead of the hollywood studio. To me it always seems to be the "big fat cats" who cant line their suits with more $100 bills.

 

The best example I can think of is Trent Reznor / Nine Inch Nails. He/they released the 2008 album "The Slip" to download for free. Here is an old-ish (2007) article where he admits to stealing music and how he gets pissed off at the mark-up the label charges for his work. He even went as far as encouraging people to

 

Looking back over my post i realise it can be seen as having contradictory views on the topic, but i'm not trying to make an argument for either side, but rather trying to encourage a different perspective of thought / encourage further discussion

 

 

Is it wrong that i have the chorus of that song as my ringtone?

Well not to put words in my own mouth but you pretty much hit the nail on the head there.

 

The way you explain the Robin Hood thing is exactly how I see it. There is a slight difference though, I don't fit into category of poor, and I don't say this a gloating way or anything, just that the poor aren't necessarily the only ones that view something in a certain way. In fact, if I were to say I had a role in Robin Hood, I believe it would be that of Friar Tuck, that's about where I fit into the picture.

 

I can see what you're talking about with the perspective thing but I mean Robin Hood is supposed to be one of those "moral of the story" kind of things. It's supposed to show that being greedy is a bad thing, and I mean it's not like Robin Hood is alone in this, there's a lot of story that teach this lesson, Jack and the Beanstalk, Scrooge, even Snow White and the Seven Dwarves, sure it doesn't seem like it at first but when you think about it, that girl was pretty well off, free shelter, free food, 7 dudes willing to do whatever she wanted but she was all like "Y'know... I can do better," nothing but a greedy (I want to say the "b" word here because I think it would tie the joke together well but I can't, even if SOPA dies, there will still be censorship )

 

See, now this is what I like to see, you actually provide fresh and new content, I sure as heck didn't know anything about NIN doing that. Seeing this kind of freshness brought into the mix feels good, it helps kill off the same repetitive thing we've been doing in these kind of threads for ages now. Like the whole "theft" argument, I don't even know how we're able to argue about something like that, dictionary people need to stop being so lazy and make those definitions more clear.

 

Actually that reminds me of my post in the Megaupload thread though. After doing a little more research of my own, NIN in fact did pretty much what I said in my post. NIN is quite literally a shining example of old music industry catching up to the times. They dropped their record label company, started their own, and now are distributing their music freely pretty much.

 

To me, that is the thing that will save the music industry, for years and years it's been seen as a gateway to money. That's what really kills the music industry in my eyes, anymore it's constantly flooded with no talent hacks because those losers want to be rich. Music isn't supposed to be about making lots of money, it's supposed to be about the music.

 

So, to sum it all up, I believe piracy is what saves the music industry rather than kills it.

[VaporX]

What are you talking about? What did I talk about that's ancient history???

 

The use of needing a backup to justify piracy. The use of digital distribution has made that argument a mute point and it lost any validity it might have had in the past. There is no longer a need to pirate a game to get rid of protection or to have an copy on a second machine or any of the old standard arguments thanks to the digital distribution system.

 

The argumentation of steal as a demo is pure crap as well. You do not go out and find some guy that stole a car to let you take it for a test drive for a week or two and then pull up to the lot and pay for it do you? Yet in essence that is exactly what the pirate does with software using that argument.. Now I will agree that game makers need to have a better demo system but to use the lack of one as a justification for theft and then further justifying it by saying but I bought it later is lame. If you do not like the fact that the game lacks a demo there are LEGAL ways to find out more about games. There is of course the demo, review sites, friends that bought the game. Also to protect your investment you could wait for it to bout a while and get it as discount. All of these are legal, ethical methods of a consumer protecting himself in making a game purchase, so why resort to the illegal unethical one?

 

The Deathmineral the idea that piracy is saving the music industry is BS and you know it. If you disagree with the economics of the industry then do not buy, it is that simple but you can still listen for free and legally so stealing it is not about helping or saving squat.

 

 

 

[Waco]

The use of needing a backup to justify piracy. The use of digital distribution has made that argument a mute point and it lost any validity it might have had in the past. There is no longer a need to pirate a game to get rid of protection or to have an copy on a second machine or any of the old standard arguments thanks to the digital distribution system.

So because some new games come out through digital channels these problems do not exist? I think not.

 

 

The argumentation of steal as a demo is pure crap as well. You do not go out and find some guy that stole a car to let you take it for a test drive for a week or two and then pull up to the lot and pay for it do you? Yet in essence that is exactly what the pirate does with software using that argument.. Now I will agree that game makers need to have a better demo system but to use the lack of one as a justification for theft and then further justifying it by saying but I bought it later is lame. If you do not like the fact that the game lacks a demo there are LEGAL ways to find out more about games. There is of course the demo, review sites, friends that bought the game. Also to protect your investment you could wait for it to bout a while and get it as discount. All of these are legal, ethical methods of a consumer protecting himself in making a game purchase, so why resort to the illegal unethical one?

You can test drive cars before you buy them. Please stop relating downloading to theft of physical items. I'm not justifying theft (and if you'd stop calling it that we could avoid that VERY old argument that has no basis in fact), I'm justifying downloading a game to try it out before buying it. Nobody loses anything, everyone gains something. Whether or not it is ethical is up for debate.

 

 

The Deathmineral the idea that piracy is saving the music industry is BS and you know it.

Really? Because I've seen more than a few articles talking about how piracy is good for the music industry as a whole, especially for new artists.

Edited January 24, 2012 by Waco

[Coors]

Just gonna leave this here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dowling_v._United_States_(1985)

Edited January 24, 2012 by Coors

[wevsspot]

Doesn't piracy in the broadest term include monetary or other gain by the person(s) actually doing the pirating? Or are we to always include the loss of potential revenue by the creator or distributor in the descriptive terms of piracy?

 

In my opinion, attempting to answer the question about whether software or content piracy is right or wrong, just leads to more questions. And furthermore, I think that the "sharing" of certain content doesn't always constitute piracy and probably shouldn't be called as such.

 

Waco makes some excellent observations about damaged or otherwise unusable media that is already paid for, a movie, a cd, software, Windows, a game, etc. In my opinion, downloading that content (since you have legally paid for it once) doesn't really constitute piracy.

 

Showing my age - what if I had a VHS tape of The Shining that I loaned to a friend(s) so they could watch - is that piracy? So what is so different if I private torrent a digital copy of a movie to a friend who wants to watch it. Or you could throw music content into that equation too. Is that piracy? Or is is just sharing something that I already own?

[Coors]

Not showing your age too bad yet. At least you didn't start rapping Don't Copy That Floppy