Doing my part for energy conservation (merged environmental threads)

[Evil_inc]

lubricant? what are we talking about here?

 

Lubricants that are used on fine mechanical objects (such as musical instruments) are petrolium based.

[Banusflakes]

ConEd sounds slightly progressive (sorta like BP is trying to become in the petroleum industry)

 

I suppose that's possible, but I think the more likely (and cynical) explanation is that they are trying to capitalize on the progressives in the area by offering us something that actually costs less to produce and charging more for it. The basic capitalist principle is that if you want the industry to do something, find a way to make it profitable. There is a strong demand here for alternative energy so ConEd is catering to that market at a higher premium. That's fine by me because the extra cost is outweighed by the feeling that I am supporting something like alternative energy.

 

AG it might not be an option right now in Idaho but looks like they're moving in that direction http://www.eere.energy.gov/states/state_ne...d=9886/state=ID

http://www.eere.energy.gov/windandhydro/wi...asp?itemid=1071

 

One thing I really wanted to do here since I live near the river and it's always windy as hell near my house was to install a couple of turbines on the roof of my building and maybe a few photovoltaic arrays. Unfortunately we live in an industrial building that is zoned as commercial space so building that kind of stuff on the roof will only draw more attention to our somewhat precarious living situation.

 

One of the perks of this is that if you can generate more than you use and you're hooked up to the grid the utilities are required by law to buy your excess power from you. It won't amount to much but I can imagine how satisfying it would be to GET checks from them. There are a lot of grants available from the state and federal governments to help homeowners implement solar and wind power. When I was looking into it, it seemed that you can pay for over half of the cost (which is still considerable) with grants as a homeowner and if you're a farmer small business owner you can pretty much get the government to pay for the whole thing.

[Banusflakes]

Since the collapse of the Soviet Union, socialist have been counting on global warming to be the next big boogie man. They are determined that there be a socialist "world" government if it's the last thing they do.

 

The "Kyoto Protocol" is nothing more than a tool to penalize the capitalist countries and reward the communist/socialist countries. All you have to do is read it and you will see the facts laid bare.

 

China is exempt from any form of emissions control in the protocol. All of Africa is is exempt.

 

Only the capitalist economic countries have quotas on emissions.

 

Can you back any of this up?

 

I think a more accurate description is that the Kyoto Accord is most restrictive on the emissions of greenhouse gasses from developed nations. Not coincidentally most of the developed nations are capitalist. Japan is the world's second largest economy and was one of the first to ratify the accord. The EU is also strongly supportive of the pact, do you allege that they are also part of this conspiracy?

 

China (and the rest of the developing world) is subject to different types of restrictions so as not to burden the developing economy. This is implemented through Article 12 of the Accord and known as the "Clean Development Mechanism" or CDM http://cdm.unfccc.int/. To say that China and the rest of the developing world is subject to no restrictions is somewhat misleading not to mention that the idea of loosening the restrictions on these countries is in the spirit of capitalism and free enterprise not some over-arching communist conspiracy as you allege.

[Angry_Games]

ExRoadie and I wear tinfoil hats

 

we just wear opposite tinfoil hats lol

 

 

 

but I will say it again

 

 

 

when less than 5% of the world's TOP SCIENTISTS (not some talking head on Fox or CNN etc, but REAL SCIENTISTS WHO STUDY THIS STUFF, FROM ALL OVER THE WORLD) still claim foolishly that there is no global warming...then how can anyone believe what they say?

 

 

when 95% or more of the TOP SCIENTISTS IN THE WORLD all have data saying that HUMANS ARE RESPONSIBLE for global warming and spewing filth into the air...it's pretty hard to keep your tinfoil hat on straight (for me anyway).

 

 

I love ExRoadie to death but he believes absolutely crazy stuff sometimes (just like I do!!! thats why I love him!).

 

 

here's something else to chew on

 

 

all the filth spewed into the air by 100,000,000+ (that's 100 million for you lazy people) vehicles, and then add 1 million to 10 million industrial plants and factories and businesses etc that spew more filth into the air....then combine that with China and Indonesia and India and all the other countries on the planet that don't even have ANY environmental standards like we do here in the west...spewing billions of cubic feet or pounds of filth into the air...and then figure that by 50 years when we REALLY started doing it heavily (since 1950's), and then add another 100 years since the start of the industrial revolution of filling the air with filth from huge coal burning factories etc etc...

 

wow

 

 

thats a lot filth (mostly CO2) in our planet's atmosphere. If it happened over the course of 500 years, maybe our planet could regulate it and heal itself...but really it has happened in the last 100 years, and mainly in the last 50 years.

 

I don't care what size tinfoil hat you wear...one person peeing in the pool you will never notice...maybe 10 people peeing in the pool you will never notice...but when a couple billion people pee in the pool every single day for 50+ years...the pool's filter system and chlorine JUST CANNOT CLEAN IT FAST ENOUGH.

 

 

 

 

then there's the argument that 12% to 20% of our economic power will go away if we implement all these new technologies and sign the Kyoto agreement.

 

Horsepucky, pure and simple and absolute BS

 

 

what these people who still claim there's no global warming won't tell you, but others that have studied it thoroughly have, is that the 12% to 20% loss in economics from being conservative and switching to alternative fuels, will gain us a 50% to 100% or more WINDFALL in economic prowess because we will be the ones inventing, manufacturing and distributing (via goods as well as patent/licensing) the new technologies.

 

So 1 million people are out of work at gas stations or fuel refineries...but what about the 2-5 million people that all of the sudden gain work R&D'ing new tech, mfg'ing new tech, distributing new tech?

 

OMG THEY DON'T WANT YOU TO KNOW ABOUT THAT!!!!

 

 

like anything important...NECCESSITY IS THE MOTHER OF ALL INVENTION.

 

right now, we NEED new technologies and fuel sources etc...we cannot keep going at this rate.

 

 

These talking heads and tinfoil hatters will repeat ANYTHING they can (and they've even made some seriously stupid stuff up lol) to keep us from moving in the right direction.

 

They will lie and skew results from their 'research' (that is MOSTLY FUNDED BY PETROLEUM/FOSSIL FUEL INDUSTRIES!!!!) that there's no need to stop using oil and no need to curb how much filth we spew into the air.

 

 

Tell that to everyone in Los Angeles or any other big city or even small city on this planet where the filth in our air is a major health problem...old people, young people, all people are affected by air pollution (which is a direct contributor to greenhouse gases)...higher rates of asthma, respiratory problems etc etc. Tinfoil hatters will deny this of course tsk tsk.

 

 

They'll skew the truth about the Kyoto protocols like Roadie has...yet Banus and I and others (those who matter) have actually taken a moment to look at what the agreements state:

 

China (and the rest of the developing world) is subject to different types of restrictions so as not to burden the developing economy. This is implemented through Article 12 of the Accord and known as the "Clean Development Mechanism" or CDM http://cdm.unfccc.int/. To say that China and the rest of the developing world is subject to no restrictions is somewhat misleading not to mention that the idea of loosening the restrictions on these countries is in the spirit of capitalism and free enterprise not some over-arching communist conspiracy as you allege.

 

heh

 

communist conspiracy

 

I freakin love it!

 

 

 

but

 

 

it's true

 

 

developing countries have different rules, but the restrictions on western countries will begin to apply to them at certain points in their development. Tinfoil hatters will not want you to believe this, and they will spout all kinds of things to try and make you think that Japan and China and the rest of the world want the West to be crippled.

 

 

 

but hey, didn't we just talk about all of the economic prowess the west would have if they did come up with new tech and license it and mfg it and distribute it?

 

wouldn't that mean that the West would still be within Kyoto but it would an unimportant protocol for us since we no longer produced all that greenhouse gas and we didn't spew all that filth into the air?

 

 

tsk tsk

 

tinfoil hatters who still believe global warming is a myth...they really haven't taken time to truly think this out...

 

or

 

they still work for fossil fuel industries and still get their paychecks from them, so of course they damn sure don't want us to believe the truth.

 

 

 

but as i said at the beginning

 

 

when more than the less than 5% of TOP SCIENTISTS in the world say 'global warming is a fraud' then I might believe them...but it just ain't happening these days.

 

There's simply too much evidence and support showing humans are wasting the only planet in the galaxy we know of that can support us.

 

To believe otherwise...well...you might have your tinfoil hat on a little too tight (it's ok to loosen it up once in a while...I do...and some of you know how much i LOVE LOVE LOVE tinfoil hat stuff!)

[red930]

Can you back any of this up?

Yes. Read the Kyoto Protocol for yourself and you will see the exact numbers.

 

To consider China a developing country is ridiculous in the extreme. Any country with an active manned space program is not a developing country! lol

 

They're completing the Three Gorges Damn. The largest construction project in the world. They've moved entire cities out of the impound area. Developing countries don't do these kinds of things.

 

But let's not pick on China. How about India being exempt?

 

I call them like I see them.

 

Spend some quality time with the Kyoto Protocol and do some more research using the resources here...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kyoto_Protocol

[red930]

Forgive my simplistic arguments, for I try to be simple yet logical...

 

when less than 5% of the world's TOP SCIENTISTS (not some talking head on Fox or CNN etc, but REAL SCIENTISTS WHO STUDY THIS STUFF, FROM ALL OVER THE WORLD) still claim foolishly that there is no global warming...then how can anyone believe what they say?

 

 

when 95% or more of the TOP SCIENTISTS IN THE WORLD all have data saying that HUMANS ARE RESPONSIBLE for global warming and spewing filth into the air...it's pretty hard to keep your tinfoil hat on straight (for me anyway).

 

First off, define 'top scientist'...there is no such thing. Short of hearing Stephen Hawking say this is the way it is, the vast majority of scientists aren't anything special. The truly brilliant ones are in their own little worlds studying crazy stuff we can't even think of. So unless it turns out dark matter is the cause for 'global warming', it's unlikely any of them will ever care enough to study it.

 

Now that leads us to the rest of scientists. The ones that are moderately to very bright, working in teams that really, really never have any money. Personally I feel that there is NO SET information that can really give us an idea of what's going on, they say what they can to get paid for an article, or recognized in some paper so they can get grants for their research of growing ears on mice or whatever.

 

Anyways.

 

all the filth spewed into the air by 100,000,000+ (that's 100 million for you lazy people) vehicles, and then add 1 million to 10 million industrial plants and factories and businesses etc that spew more filth into the air....then combine that with China and Indonesia and India and all the other countries on the planet that don't even have ANY environmental standards like we do here in the west...spewing billions of cubic feet or pounds of filth into the air...and then figure that by 50 years when we REALLY started doing it heavily (since 1950's), and then add another 100 years since the start of the industrial revolution of filling the air with filth from huge coal burning factories etc etc...

 

wow

 

 

thats a lot filth (mostly CO2) in our planet's atmosphere. If it happened over the course of 500 years, maybe our planet could regulate it and heal itself...but really it has happened in the last 100 years, and mainly in the last 50 years.

 

Certainly nobody is saying having so many cars spewing 'x' amount of pollutant into the atmosphere is a good thing. Then again:

 

1. While there is a lot put into the atmosphere, you don't take into account that not all of it stays there, by any means. I'm sure there are number that show it both ways, but consider rain alonebringing it back out. Some still stays there - probably even a majority of it, but this brings me to my next point anyways...

 

2. We are ignorant to think that we can ever (at this stage of our technology) have an effect on something as massive as the entire planet. Yeah sure, we can kill everybody of with nukes, but it ain't gonna matter to the planet itself.

 

Honestly, everything is global warming this, global warming that, and what do we see? On average a 2 degree rise over a hundred years. Big damn deal, obviously its going to increase or decrease by some set amount, the weather fricken changes all the time. Hell, there was a year a long time ago that there was 18 inches of snowfall in a couple days this time of year in Iowa. And now its 70 degrees.

 

what these people who still claim there's no global warming won't tell you, but others that have studied it thoroughly have, is that the 12% to 20% loss in economics from being conservative and switching to alternative fuels, will gain us a 50% to 100% or more WINDFALL in economic prowess because we will be the ones inventing, manufacturing and distributing (via goods as well as patent/licensing) the new technologies.

 

Again, nobody has studied global warming 'thoroughly'. But the only myth greater than that is people who think they know how the economy works. It just doesn't happen.

 

Now then, I'm all for creating better technologies, but you need to realize that while a lot of these alternative methods exist, it isn't easy AT ALL to bring them into reality. To a point where they are useful is a MASSIVE effort that requires years upon years of study. It can be done, for sure, but keep in mind also that its best to study these long enough to determine any aftereffects they might have. Take fuel-cell cars for instance, anybody ever consider how much more rain we'll have? Cuz' it'd be measurable if everybody used them. All big cities would get as much rain a Seattle.

 

NECCESSITY IS THE MOTHER OF ALL INVENTION.

 

No kidding, anybody else think we should have a nice 'ol World War 3? The problem is the you're correct, but nothing is necessary now. People think in the present, and unless we were told that we will boil alive 20 years from now - FOR SURE - and everybody backed it up - there just isn't any reason to focus on cleaner power until we run out of other sources (thats the view people as a whole have, not entirely mine).

 

These talking heads and tinfoil hatters will repeat ANYTHING they can (and they've even made some seriously stupid stuff up lol) to keep us from moving in the right direction.

 

Keep in mind EVERYBODY quotes whatever they can. In any debate EVER. It's just the way it is and neither side believes any other side. Look at this for instance:

 

They will lie and skew results from their 'research' (that is MOSTLY FUNDED BY PETROLEUM/FOSSIL FUEL INDUSTRIES!!!!) that there's no need to stop using oil and no need to curb how much filth we spew into the air.

 

Guess who mostly funds the other side? Greenpeace, Sierra Club and the like. Both sides want their view shown, and they both have assloads of money behind them. Guess where that money would better be spent?

 

research

 

Now then.

 

I'm only 'picking' on you because you have a lot of agruments...and I'm mostly on Roadies side...

 

and now for a beautiful quote:

 

...yet Banus and I and others (those who matter)...

 

:sad:

 

In short, I care because I look to the future. If we can have clean power and gobs of it I'm all for it. I don't want it because the 'planet is dying', I want it because I'm interested in new technology.

[red930]

ExRoadie and I wear tinfoil hats

 

we just wear opposite tinfoil hats lol

Mine is a stylish fedora! lol

 

There are billions of dollars funneled into "global warming" research every year.

 

All of the money is controlled by the very people who have a vested interest in keeping "global warming" in the headlines. The bigger the issue, the bigger the funding.

 

Just imagine a scientist going to the university to ask for money to prove "global warming" isn't induced by human activity. He would be laughed out of the office and possibly off campus.

 

Now you won't find this information in the media but here's a single example of what the ongoing research into global warming is finding.

 

The link below shows relative CO2 levels across the globe. Take a look at where the highest concentrations of CO2 are coming from...

http://www.agu.org/journals/gl/gl0511/2004...res.shtml#fig02

 

Lightning induced fires release more CO2 into the atmosphere every year than all the human activity since WWII. That's a lot of CO2 PawPaw!

 

I never said I didn't believe in "global warming". I just don't believe that human activity is the sole factor in the rate of warming. The earth is warming, I have no doubt about that. I happen to believe that there are other factors greater than human activity.

 

Scientist measuring the solar output of the Sun have detected a increase that coincides with the approaching solar maximum that runs on a potential 300 year cycle.

 

Even as recently as the 1970's, there were claims that "global cooling" was a threat to our existence...

http://www.libertypost.org/cgi-bin/readart.cgi?ArtNum=137180

 

Here are some sites that have direct temperature measurements...

http://www.cru.uea.ac.uk/ Click the station to see their temp measurments.

 

or

 

http://data.giss.nasa.gov/gistemp/station_data/ scroll down and click a locatin on the map then view the station data.

 

The bottom line is that I know that we don't know as much as we think we know and someone needs to find a better way of putting that in a sentence. LOL

[KimTjik]

The bottom line is that I know that we don't know as much as we think we know and someone needs to find a better way of putting that in a sentence.

I will agree with that, but with the adjustment, that not knowing for sure doesn't provide an excuse for not being interested. Actually that argument prove the opposite: the less we know the more concerned should we be about the possible impact of our own activity.

 

I don't see the argument about human activity not being the greatest cause of increased CO2 as valid. Smoking isn't the main cause of death, since we all will die eventually; still it makes a difference. There might be a long list of “not main causes”, but it doesn’t change the fact that something will prove to finally be "the too much".

[MoJo Risin&#39]

I am not a climatologist, but I simply don’t see any urgency over global warming. I don’t buy conspiracy theories. Heck, some loonies think there’s a conspiracy by Bush and Cheney to create a New World Order. What I do buy is that the Kyoto Accord is a non-credible joke aimed at stifling the U.S. It contains scientific bias, unfounded assumptions, and speculation. It deviates from the standard research practices and principles normally employed to develop findings and conclusions. Other scientists feel this method of research will end up giving Research Science a black eye down the road.

 

As ExRoadie said, The "Kyoto Protocol" is nothing more than a tool to penalize the capitalist countries and reward the communist/socialist countries.

 

I’m not sure if it’s a tool, but I fail to see how the selective placing of restrictions on one country and not another “is in the spirit of capitalism and free enterprise”. If the U.S. is ever stupid enough to buy into this hoax, than I guess we deserve what we get. The fact that the UN-sponsored Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change was involved is enough to make me puke right there.

 

I worked as a subcontractor at a NASA research center from 1998 – 2004. During that timeframe, I talked to/worked with various scientific types. When I used to sit in on certain reviews, some of these guys were so advanced, I thought they were speaking Martian to me. Theirs is a world of white boards based on scientifically founded and accepted theories, not speculation. Fully, 80% felt global warming existed to some extent. However, most felt it is nowhere near catastrophic proportions and that Kyoto was out of line. Six to eight tenths of a degree C change up or down, over a certain 100 year snapshot of time is not going to cause me to lose sleep. After all, according to some of the bogus scientific research claims of the 70’s, we’re not supposed to have animal life today. They should have already been wiped out as of the year 2000. Personally, I’m more worried about the Earth getting hit by an asteroid, than I am about global warming.

 

This link was prominent when I first started at NASA:

http://www.sepp.org/pressrel/petition.html

 

You might also try:

http://www.oism.org/pproject/s33p36.htm

[KimTjik]

I don’t buy conspiracy theories.

 

vs.

 

The "Kyoto Protocol" is nothing more than a tool to penalize the capitalist countries and reward the communist/socialist countries.

 

no comments...

[Angry_Games]

To consider China a developing country is ridiculous in the extreme. Any country with an active manned space program is not a developing country! lol

 

whawhahahahahahahahahahahah

 

they put ONE dude in space for like...6 minutes? hehehehe

 

First off, define 'top scientist'...there is no such thing. Short of hearing Stephen Hawking say this is the way it is, the vast majority of scientists aren't anything special. The truly brilliant ones are in their own little worlds studying crazy stuff we can't even think of. So unless it turns out dark matter is the cause for 'global warming', it's unlikely any of them will ever care enough to study it.

 

easy

 

less than 5% of all the scientists that devote their time to global warming, atmospheric study, and climate/weather in general

 

there....pretty simple don't ya think?

 

(here again, the tinfoil hatters will argue every last point to death just like they did with the "tight timings vs memory bandwidth" etc)

 

1. While there is a lot put into the atmosphere, you don't take into account that not all of it stays there, by any means. I'm sure there are number that show it both ways, but consider rain alonebringing it back out. Some still stays there - probably even a majority of it, but this brings me to my next point anyways...

 

rain doesn't 'bring back' Co2 that collects above the weather-producing layers of the atmosphere...(common knowledge)

 

2. We are ignorant to think that we can ever (at this stage of our technology) have an effect on something as massive as the entire planet. Yeah sure, we can kill everybody of with nukes, but it ain't gonna matter to the planet itself.

 

lol

 

this is the EXACT thinking that has led us (humans) down so many ugly paths, and will continue to lead us down more and more ugly paths.

 

it is simply pure folly to think, and especially to try and convince others that humans have zero effect on the planet, or that we simply cannot affect an ENTIRE planet

 

I really don't even need to go into any details as it is just common sense to think that humans are not the cause of just about everything that is wrong with the world today.

 

You can continue to delude yourself that we humans are not the problem, but honestly...that is all it is. Delusional. At best. At worst, it is this type of thinking that has led us to many bad branches of the predictional instruction path (thats for you nerds out there lol).

 

Again, nobody has studied global warming 'thoroughly'. But the only myth greater than that is people who think they know how the economy works. It just doesn't happen.

 

really????

 

where do you guys get this tinfoil hat information?

 

LOL

 

I swear...they've been studying this since the 70's, yet you tinfoil hatters KEEP insisting that no one has studied it, or that it isn't thorough enough, or god-only-knows what kind of excuses or whatever you keep trying to come up with to deny it

 

I really feel bad for you guys really. I still love you as my buddies...but it makes me sad to see people continually deny something...its like a parent that sees all the signs of his kid being on dope, yet still denies that his kid is on dope (even after his kid steals a gun, shoots a grandma and takes her money, and is caught, and admits that he was doing it to buy dope...)

 

 

Now then, I'm all for creating better technologies, but you need to realize that while a lot of these alternative methods exist, it isn't easy AT ALL to bring them into reality. To a point where they are useful is a MASSIVE effort that requires years upon years of study. It can be done, for sure, but keep in mind also that its best to study these long enough to determine any aftereffects they might have. Take fuel-cell cars for instance, anybody ever consider how much more rain we'll have? Cuz' it'd be measurable if everybody used them. All big cities would get as much rain a Seattle.

 

don't try to make it complicated, and don't try to make new technology out to be boogymen (ie 'fuel cell cars would make every city as rainy as Seattle' lol).

 

steam engines took a while to come around, but they were THE workhorse until gasoline engines took over.

 

bakelite was THE plastic until we invented real plastic

 

copper telephone wires were THE communication medium of choice until we invented Fiber Optics

 

death was THE result of diseases until we came up with some serious vaccines and antibiotics and better health care systems.

 

 

need I go any further?

 

I mean, if we didn't come up with this stuff, we'd all be dead of disease or poisoned by even worse pollution than we already are and we'd still be stuck talking on telegraphs or obsolete phone systems lol...we don't want that do we?

 

No kidding, anybody else think we should have a nice 'ol World War 3? The problem is the you're correct, but nothing is necessary now. People think in the present, and unless we were told that we will boil alive 20 years from now - FOR SURE - and everybody backed it up - there just isn't any reason to focus on cleaner power until we run out of other sources (thats the view people as a whole have, not entirely mine).

 

ah, here we are again with a "There's nothing wrong! look over there! don't look here!!!"

 

"geez, there's no problem...why do you think there's a problem??? Just because Billy is on fire doesn't mean he's being burned to death...I mean, come on. Fire doesn't mean heat and burning! What kind of tinfoil hat do you have on???"

 

"Geez, just because Tommy has an infection, does NOT mean he should see a doctor. Sheesh, you guys act like infections can be harmful or something. There's nothing wrong with his leg being all infected and turning black and starting to stink. Take your tinfoil hat off and clean it once in a while sheesh"

 

Just imagine a scientist going to the university to ask for money to prove "global warming" isn't induced by human activity. He would be laughed out of the office and possibly off campus.

 

not true

 

plenty of research has been funded to try and find out either side

 

all scientific research is supposed to prove or disprove a theory

 

thats what research is

 

some use it as a tool, some as a political tool.

 

most scientists (still) are real scientists...meaning they want the truth. THey don't want political climate change. They want the truth. That is what science is all about.

 

Just like religion, a few bad apples makes you wonder about the entire religion. Same with scientists...you get a few nutjobs and all of the sudden those with an agenda start pointing out the nutjobs to sway everyone else's opinion.

 

 

 

 

but the great thing is everyone is entitled to their own views and opinions

 

thats what makes us great

 

 

right now, those of you who don't think global warming is real, are in teh very low minority...and some of you can't accept that.

 

like religion, theres a few that will shout the loudest that will try to convince others they are the majority (it works here in teh forums...a few shout screamingly loud that their expert board fries cpu's and OMG look what happens from there lol).

 

however

 

the majority of americans, majority of europeans, the majority of the world still believes (rightfully in my opinion) that global warming is a problem.

 

This isn't a few nutjobs screaming at the top of their lungs anymore

 

this is a true overwhelming majority

 

I don't mind that the minority still believes its a tinfoil hat bunch of nonsense

 

thats beautiful

 

hopefully you guys will come onboard eventually but I doubt it

 

 

it is like trying to convince a hardcore christian the earth is 4 billion years old or more (even though there's overwhelming proof that the earth is a hell of a lot older than 6,000 years lol...yet some of them still refuse to believe it, and say it is "satan's way of making us not believe in God").

 

 

heh

 

 

I'm not trying to make a big fight

 

 

I chuckle the whole time i reply to this thread (ask momma she keeps wondering wtf I am laughing at)

 

 

I know you guys chuckle at me and some of my off the wall theories and tinfoil hat opinions

 

 

I chuckle at myself

 

 

but I do wonder what they are teaching you kids in school

[Banusflakes]

As ExRoadie said, The "Kyoto Protocol" is nothing more than a tool to penalize the capitalist countries and reward the communist/socialist countries.

 

 

Explain to me how the countries of the EU, Japan and other industrialized capitalist, democratic countries classify as a communist countries. If the Kyoto Protocol is really as biased as you think it is, then why on earth would these countries sign something aimed at "punishing" them? Surely you're not arguing that they are masochistic?

 

I'm not arguing that the KP is not flawed and in need of some revision and I read all of the stuff on Wikipedia and I still don't see anything that backs these statements of it being a tool used to oppress capitalism. The section on developing countries clearly states that as these economies reach certain levels of sophistication the countries will be required to meet the standards of the protocol.

Up until that point the CDM policies will guide the development of those countries to ensure that they pursue commitments to cleaner sources of energy and more eco-friendly policies as part of their development process. That way we don't have to do all of this all over again.

 

Environmentalists take a lot of flak when they phrase their arguments in terms of imminent perceptible climate change. This kind of stuff occurs gradually and saying that certain things will happen at a certain year dooms their movement to failure because when that prediction is inaccurate (as climate predictions so often are) people seize upon that as evidence that nothing is happening.

 

The point is that whatever research is being analyzed is going to be biased in one way or another. People inject their bias into everything they do and that includes analyizing data sets. So take everything with a grain of salt, but the point is not the magnitude at which human activity contributes to global warming but the fact that it does. Whether you agree with the Kyoto Protocol as it currently stands or not, the important point is that we must do something.

 

The earth is huge and can absorb massive amounts of abuse from us, from volcanoes, fires and anything else. But there are systems at work that are very fragile and a change of 2-3 degrees can be the difference between triggering an ice-age and preserving our current condition. I agree that we cannot fully understand the impact of human society on the earth's climate, but do we can say without a doubt that what we do has some impact.