Guest Ron Posted February 3, 2005 Posted February 3, 2005 I searched the forum, but found no reference to this. (And the documentation is pathetic!)** I was surprised when my processor was reported as 1267 Hz - or something like that - upon first boot. Then I realized that I could alter the CPU ext freq.. Having already given up on the woefully brief quick start pamphlet, I d/l'd and read the manual. Surprise - no help there, either!** So I randomly tried 133MHz, which yielded 1733 for the processor. Eventually I settled on 166, which I'm sure you've all guessed yielded what I wanted: 3000+. ** Yes - I know this is an enthusiast board, but I'm still amazed that DFI assumes so much from the end user.** Anyway, it begs the question; what would I get if I set the ext freq to 167? Or 180? How about 200?! It is both intriguing and intimidating.** On to RAM issues. I realize that multiple sticks must ideally have the same latency and speed. But these forums all seem to be jammed with strings of timing numbers. (2-3-3-6, or 3-3-3-11 etc. etc..) I understood that memory specs - esp latency - were guidelines set by the manuf, as opposed to rigid parameters. So, if the DFI BIOS offers such a wide range of customizeable settings...is it therefore possible to "force" memory to run at specs other than those at which it is rated?** And if true, why spend more for CL2.5 or CL2 memory? And yes - I hear some of you groaning, "Why did he buy this board when he hasn't got a clue?" Well, a couple of reasons: SATA x 4 with RAID...and excellent price > features ratio. Besides - my A7N8X Dlx is pretty tweak-friendly, but it's not as snotty as the DFI. Anyway - small steps. I appreciate your thoughts. **I know, I have a lot to learn. That's why I'm here! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Stom Posted February 3, 2005 Posted February 3, 2005 Ok Ron, lets start from the beginning..... The frequency your CPU runs at is set by two factors, the front side bus (FSB) and the multiplier. The external frequency you are referring to is actually another term for the FSB. Your cpu runs with a FSB of 166 Mhz and a multiplier of 13 giving a clock frequency of 166x13=2167Mhz. This is the stock speed of your processor. It is the configuration that the manufacturer has deemed to work for the widest variety of configurations at the default voltage (1.65v) If you were to increase the FSB you would be overclocking your CPU. This would invalidate your warranty with AMD. But there is a certain amount of headroom in most CPUs which means it could run faster than its stock speed with the correct persuasion. If you were to increase the FSB from 166 to 180 MHz, while leaving the multiplier at 13, yopu would increase the frequency at which your processor and RAM are operating, giving a clock speed of 180x13=2340Mhz. Increasing the FSB to 200 would yield a clock speed of 2600Mhz would yield a clock speed of 2600MHz, which is unlikely to be successful if your multiplier is locked at 13 as the more recent athlon chips have been for some time. The correct persuasion as mentioned above would probably involve increasing the voltage to you CPU in order for it to run quicker. But if you push the chip too far you could fry it, but if you are careful and don`t go silly with the voltage you can largely avoid this, but it is always a possibility. You just need to keep a close eye on your system temperatures with Motherboard Monitor or Hardware Doctor to make sure they`re not going too high. As with memory, if you increase your FSB, you are also making your memory run at a higher frequency. This will put more stress on your RAM aswell as your CPU and chipset, so any problems encountered can become multifactorial. Where the timings are concerned, it is possible to "force" RAM to run with tighter timings than those defined by the SPD of your RAM. ( I prefer to think of it as gentle encouragement rather than forcing...hehe). Paying extra for modules rated at CAS 2.5 or CAS 2 means you are paying for modules that are guaranteed to run at lower latencies by the manufacturer. Coaxing your RAM to run at tighter timings is not guaranteed, and doing this carries a risk f it not happening, hence you pay a price premium for having RAM sticks that will definitely run at tighter timings. Take note that it is impossible with this board to run 2 sticks of RAM at different timings from each other. It sounds like you are at teh stage of beginning your adventures into the world of overclocking, and with a shed load of patience, a careful eye on things and some common sense it is a whole lotta fun, but just beware that there are risks, no guarantees, and CPU manufacturers don`t appreciate it very much :cool: Stomly Stomus Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Ron Posted February 4, 2005 Posted February 4, 2005 Thanks very much! I truly appreciate your patience. Yes - I have a rudimentary understanding of o/c'g...and I know it can be risky; both to one's warranty as well as to one's peace of mind. And I am aware of the resulting thermal ramifications. (Indeed I use MBM on all my machines, although since he discontinued support & updates, I'm not sure it will run and/or be safe to run on the U/I.) So - clearly there are preset parameters in a/the BIOS, which are determined by the FSB [setting].►► And I understand that, when I set 'X' as the FSB -- in this case 166 -- the other assorted settings are automatically [and optimally] adjusted. And, based upon your helpful info, it sounds like those 'other' settings will continue to auto-compensate/adjust if I continue to crank up the FSB. But only to a certain threshold. Right? But...there is a family of Barton processors that are UNlocked, isn't there? So if I have one of those -- and I believe the OPN will reveal this -- does that mean my threshold is only limited by my machine's ability to cool itself? (You said that 13 may be the limit of my processor's multiplier). Where does that 13 come from, anyway? From the processor, yes, but is it fixed or variable? If variable, how is it varied? By the user or by itself? And are these assorted settings always adjusted in concert? Or, am I right and they CAN be independently adjusted...but with increased risk(?) Believe me, I have tried to get my head around the whole FSB/mem timings matrix. But I've yet to find a clear explanation online. Meanwhile I am left scratching my head. What's worse is, I am confident that you or someone else in this forum would be an ideal tutor, but it's not fair to the endless stream of other people who also need help. ►►There are two levels (presets? for CPU: Optimal and Agressive. Additionally, there are FOUR presets under System Performance. Would I be right to assume that selecting 'Agressive' in the former, and something *other than* 'Optimal' in the latter...would open up access to additional settings? (Or, as I suggested earlier, do these "presets" just invoke a tighter set of parameters? I suppose it's a combination of both. Anyway, more small steps. Respectfully... Ron Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RGone Posted February 4, 2005 Posted February 4, 2005 Overclocking 101... Overclocking 101.a Because in reality it is not so much the heat that gets you first but over-speed that just will not suffice. And here is an exerpt portion of a cutNpaste I send to every user contacting DFI support because they corrupted their bios. Let me make one more suggestion and it is to purchase you an item called a bios saviour. It is a piggybacked 'second' bios chip that is switchable from your main bios to a spare bios. RD1-PMC4 is the number and it is a very tidy solution to use in NF2 chipset motherboards. You get the thing and install on a booting computer and using correct procedure> you flash that spare bios and then after making sure it will at least boot the computer> you swap back onto the original bios chip and go your merry way with the safety of a spare and 'ready' bios chip to keep you from the headache you just are experienceing. I use the bios savior on "all" my NF2 motherboards regardless of brand as I have been saved by the bios savior at least 3 times from a failed boot that was unexpected. That or a spare pre-flashed bios chip is recommended before rummaging around too vigorously in the NF2 bios. Just so you know up front. RGone... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Ron Posted February 4, 2005 Posted February 4, 2005 Indeed. I've read about this before. (I used to be an occasional helper in the ASUS NG) I think it's excellent advice, and I believe it's high time I procured one. I'll post a follow-up shortly. Regards, Ron Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Ron Posted February 5, 2005 Posted February 5, 2005 OK - I see why I was confused. Sortof. Today I fired up the box and the processor appeared as 833Hz (or 8-hundred & something) Huh?! I jumped right into the BIOS and the FSB was stil set @ 166, and the mult was still set at AUTO. Luckily I remembered my previous responder's observation re: the FSB > MULT ratio. (166x13) So I scrolled down & set 13 in the MULT settings and it came up as a 3000+ again. Then I checked for newer [than 2.45] nForce unified drivers on the DFI site. (My ASUS nForce2 has looooong since left 2.45 in the dust!!) DFI showed 2.45 as the most recent, but hey - I'm daring, right?! So I updated to 5.10. oops. Lost the sound right away. Had to do a little fancy footwork to get it back. (By "fancy" I mean that I believe I have successfully downgraded the audio drivers to 2.45 while leaving the rest at 5.10) I think. Anyway, everything -- including sound -- seems OK now. On to RAM. I pulled the single Kingston (333MHz/CL3/512) out of slot #1 and bracketed it with an identical pair of Infineon (266MHz/CL2/256). I installed one in slot #1 and the second in slot #3. D/C appeared in the POST, but something wasn't right. (I forget if it refused to start XP or it started but screwed up.) Anyway, I pulled the Kingston stick and left the pair of Infineon's in there. BEEEEEEP!! BEEEEEP!! Move them to a diff config (I forget which positions) BEEEEEEP! BEEEEEEP!! BEEEEEP!! OK - ANOTHER diff config... Silence, but major instability. I'm guessing due to 266MHz speed of memory? (All RAM-related settings are still Optimal/AUTO/by SPD etc. etc..) Back to the single Kingston. The adventure continues. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Joalaielna Posted February 5, 2005 Posted February 5, 2005 You should always set to optimal defaults before doing any hardware changes. Including ram. The board should by default run at auto speed, which in your case is 166mhz. Anyhow Thats what i would suggest. Peace Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Ron Posted February 5, 2005 Posted February 5, 2005 OK - I don't get this at all. With 166x13, the BIOS reports a 3000+ CPU running at 2733 or something close to that. That seems OK, but the system is really unstable. Checkdisk-during-boot froze twice and finally finished with no errors, but video is sluggish and freeze-ups are happening. Also getting dead or spotty LAN connectivity. So I re-entered the BIOS and turned down to 133xDEFAULT. Now the BIOS reports 668Hz. The systems seems to be running VERY well, and the vid sluggishness has vanished. And the LAN is bang-on. Is it possible that the BIOS is inaccurately reporting the CPU speed? (And therefore Windows is dutifully showing a speed which is actually incorrect?) I ask because it sure seems to be running at better than 668Hz. Perhaps a BIOS update is recommended? If so, what is the consensus re: best way? DOS boot disk or from within Windows? I guess I'll need Winbond? I've done it with the Gigabyte GUI on their mobo, and it seemed to work fine. Oh - and according to the BIOS @ POST, my temps are fine. Just a hair over 30 degrees. But I cranked up the TT a bit just in case. And I have two thermo-actuated fans in the case; 1 @ FR, 1 @ RR. Plus the big 120mm in the PSU. I'm certain these issues are BIOS-related, not temp-related. Regards... Ron Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Stom Posted February 5, 2005 Posted February 5, 2005 Ron, when you put it the infineon RAM, the board was trying to run it at the same speed as the FSB.....166/333Mhz. Your infineon chips are only rated at 133/266Mhz, so you were trying to run them quicker than they are probably capable of, hence the beeps as the RAM had a hissy fit. MBM5 will be fine running on the Infinity, plenty of folks here use it, I run it on my Lanparty and it works just fine... So - clearly there are preset parameters in a/the BIOS, which are determined by the FSB [setting].►► And I understand that, when I set 'X' as the FSB -- in this case 166 -- the other assorted settings are automatically [and optimally] adjusted. And, based upon your helpful info, it sounds like those 'other' settings will continue to auto-compensate/adjust if I continue to crank up the FSB. But only to a certain threshold. Right? You are almost right Ron......There are certain settings in the bios that can be set to AUTO, and these settings will adjust accordingly as you alter the rest of the system. The main example I am thinking of here is the memory configuraton, which will automatically adjust memory timings depending on your FSB. However, using these settings on AUTO removes an element of control from your set up....hence if you changed something in the bios to see how it helped your overclock, it may improve things or make them worse, right? But if your bios is automatically adjusting things that you don`t know about, then that may have affected the system too...introducing a whole new set of variables that may hinder your overclock. This is why it is wise to check out what the most important options in the bios actually do, and as you are a pretty experienced builder, it should be relatively straightforward for you to get your head around them. When you have sussed out the bios and all its little bits (and it does get bitty :nod: ), its best to change only one or a few settings at once, so that you can narrow down any nuances to a particular change. I.e...change one thing, and see how it affects the system...if its a bad effect.....change it back. But...there is a family of Barton processors that are UNlocked, isn't there? So if I have one of those -- and I believe the OPN will reveal this -- does that mean my threshold is only limited by my machine's ability to cool itself? (You said that 13 may be the limit of my processor's multiplier). Where does that 13 come from, anyway? From the processor, yes, but is it fixed or variable? If variable, how is it varied? By the user or by itself? Early Bartons were unlocked, but if you bought your chip in the last 18 months or so, it is unlikely you have an unlocked chip. All Bartons were locked afterweek 39. It is fairly simple to test. If you set the multiplier in the bios to 6 or something lower than your default of 13, then boot to windows and check your multiplier setting in CPU-Z (from www.cpuid.com), it should show a multiplier the same as the value you set in the bios. If it still reads 13, then your chip is locked. What is the OPN? If your chip is unlocked, then your max FSB in theory is only limited by your chipset and your RAM. But in general you will find a ceiling when the harmony between your CPU, chipset and memory are maxed out. Cooling will also play an important role as this is likely to limit your overclock before you max out your chipset/ram FSB. The 13 is the multiplier set by the kind folks at AMD. If your chip is unlocked it is variable, if your chip is multiplier locked, it is fixed If your chip is unlocked, then you can manually adjust the multiplier in the bios. And are these assorted settings always adjusted in concert? Or, am I right and they CAN be independently adjusted...but with increased risk(?) I would always adjust settings independantly, one at a time, so that you now what change you made and how it affected the system stability etc. If you are careful and don`t go nuts, AND YOU UNDERSTAND WHAT YOU ARE CHANGING, then the risk is minimised..... ►►There are two levels (presets? for CPU: Optimal and Agressive. Additionally, there are FOUR presets under System Performance. Would I be right to assume that selecting 'Agressive' in the former, and something *other than* 'Optimal' in the latter...would open up access to additional settings? (Or, as I suggested earlier, do these "presets" just invoke a tighter set of parameters? I suppose it's a combination of both. I always run at optimal for CPU...although I don`t see much differnce in performance or stability by changing this preset. Under System perormance, if you select EXPERT, this opens up access to all the memoy timings etc....these will then be fixed and will not automatically adjust according to your FSB as mentioned earlier. Feel free to PM me Ron if you see me online... Stomly Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Stom Posted February 5, 2005 Posted February 5, 2005 Ron, Try selecting "Load optimised defaults" in the bios and see if it detects your CPU correctly Stomly Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Ron Posted February 5, 2005 Posted February 5, 2005 02/05 - 1650 E.S.T. (Many thanks. I mean it.) OK - after the latest round of tantrum-throwing, I set the FSB down to 133 (x13), and the proc is reported as 668Hz. The box ran OK. So I upped to a FSB of 166 (xDEFAULT) and the box was flaky. THEN... I learned something!! :eek: I discovered that "SPD"" in the mem settings field is NOT the same as AUTO. All this time I thought that SPD and AUTO were synonymous. So I altered to 166x13 and AUTO for mem, and everything is A-OK. The proc is reported as a AthlonXP 3000+, running @ 2167. (Yay!) Next will be MBM install, followed by CPU-ID (or Z or w/e). Things are looking up! More will come... With respect Ron Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Ron Posted February 6, 2005 Posted February 6, 2005 02/06 Well, MBM is in, as well as CPU-ID. MBM is showing mid-thirties for CPU temp. And CPU-ID reveals this: CPU Voltage: 1.616v 2171.6 MHz MULT: x13 FSB: 167.0 Bus Speed: 334.1 MHz I tried loading the Optimized/Default BIOS settings, but the proc still comes up at <900Hz. And I tried a few combinations of FSBxMULT, and as I slowly stepped them up, the CPU speed increased in a predictable manner until I reached the [apparently ideal] combo of 166x13. Now I'm having doubts about the chipset drivers. [Loyal] readers will recall that I shot myself in the foot by updating the unified mobo drivers to v5.10. I've since done a partial rollback, and the box seems pretty good. (I'll be back!) Cheers Ron Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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