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Id Vs. Evolution In Public Schools


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#85 Kamikaze_Badger

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Posted 04 October 2005 - 07:05 PM

As long as you "accidently" "lose control" of it, and happen to "accidently" kill Hillary Clinton, I'll pay for your gas :D.
Is my Razer Diamondback retro yet?
s

Graciously recommended from KB, is some muffricken Christian death metal. It is a must hear, it pushes envelopes, explores new ground. Words can't describe just now incredibly awesome this is. Cue the alter smashing, bench flipping, and bible reading while thrashing away at guitars and drums.

I witnessed regional Special Olympics and Challenge Day; there's far more intellect there than there is in internet arguments.

#86 Aristotle

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Posted 04 October 2005 - 08:57 PM

Unguided evolution is like burying a paperclip in sand and hoping that after a few million years it will turn into a Athlon64 4000+.


I hope this is a joke. It is a very poor argument because it only displays complete ignorance of simple Evolutionary events. A paperclip does nothing. Most likely its molecular structure will break down and cause rust to form. It may perhaps influence the organisms around it or it may develop into an organism itself. No one can really be sure; however, I can guarantee you that it will not become something as complex and artifical as a CPU.

KB: Please avoid direct, personal attacks.
LoArmistead: Please keep political labels out of this.

These behaviors are OT and do not, in any way, benefit the discussion. Present ideas, not labels. If need be, present the ideas that are usually associated with the labels.

P.S. -- Pasture=dinner :lol:

#87 thespin

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Posted 05 October 2005 - 01:36 AM

The argument is merely an appeal to ignorance and is not even entirely accurate in its construction.  Anaerobic organisms are the oldest kinds of bacteria on Earth with clostridium tetani (tetanus) as an example.  Most of the first organisms (bacteria) survived only on gas and light as sustenance.  This violates your original premise that the first organism must first be able to "2) discriminate as to what food it takes in (else it would poison itself)".  The standard of when an organism is actually considered an organism is also arbitrary, existing on a contiuum; however, Evolution does not concern itself with such topics.  Science approaches this subject through a study known as Abiogenesis.

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Actually, I never (or rarely) appeal to ignorance. It's not my style. I love the truth; 'it will set us free.' I try to stimulate thinking and the exchange of ideas hoping that all parties to the discussion will learn something from each other.

The organism, clostridium tetanii, that you propose as an example supporting your argument, actually supports mine much more strongly. Your putting a 'face' on a life form allows me to layout a description of some of the VERY, VERY, VERY COMPLEX structures and processes that exists in even the "simplest" life form:
Cytoplasmic Membrane - A layer of phospholipids and proteins, called the cytoplasmic membrane, encloses the interior of the bacterium, regulating the flow of materials in and out of the cell. This is a structural trait bacteria share with all other living cells; a barrier that allows them to selectively interact with their environment. Membranes are highly organized and asymmetric having two sides, each side with a different surface and different functions. Membranes are also dynamic, constantly adapting to different conditions.
Cell Wall - Each bacterium is enclosed by a rigid cell wall composed of peptidoglycan, a protein-sugar (polysaccharide) molecule. The wall gives the cell its shape and surrounds the cytoplasmic membrane, protecting it from the environment.
Ribosomes are microscopic "factories" found in all cells, including bacteria. They translate the genetic code from the molecular language of nucleic acid to that of amino acids—the building blocks of proteins. Proteins are the molecules that perform all the functions of cells and living organisms.
Cytoplasm - The cytoplasm, or protoplasm, of bacterial cells is where the functions for cell growth, metabolism, and replication are carried out. It is a gel-like matrix composed of water, enzymes, nutrients, wastes, and gases and contains cell structures such as ribosomes, a chromosome, and plasmids. The cell envelope encases the cytoplasm and all its components.
The nucleoid is a region of cytoplasm where the chromosomal DNA is located. It is not a membrane bound nucleus, but simply an area of the cytoplasm where the strands of DNA are found. Most bacteria have a single, circular chromosome that is responsible for replication, although a few species do have two or more. Smaller circular auxiliary DNA strands, called plasmids, are also found in the cytoplasm.

Do you know that it can take us weeks to make proteins (when we can make them at all) that are produced in seconds in these "microscopic factories" ? If man is the standard of intelligence, what does that tell us ? If man for all his vaunted intelligence is just playing catch-up to what already exists in nature (the ability to fly, the ability to live under the oceans, the ability to communicate over long distances, the ability to feed himself etc), can we draw any conclusions ? No ?

I am not a biologist. The above can be found here:
http://micro.magnet....cteriacell.html

I ask again: How could life exist by chance ?

#88 Aristotle

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Posted 05 October 2005 - 02:34 AM

I'm ending this here as I can tell what thespin is trying to do. He is merely taking whatever he can find on the web and citing the information, although he has no idea what it even means or what purpose it even serves to the discussion, in order to attempt to reduce my answers to a subject, event, or entity that I, or possibly even science, can not yet explain. He will then attempt to appeal to ignorance claiming that since there is something I, or science, can't explain which he will then claim as a sign of Design. This is merely a troll tactic that I will not tolerate. Unless thespin has something to contribute to the discussion of whether ID is a science or not, his posts are merely grasps at straws with no real knowledge of the subject he is refering to.

#89 94Camaro

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Posted 05 October 2005 - 09:01 AM

I hope this is a joke.  It is a very poor argument because it only displays complete ignorance of simple Evolutionary events.  A paperclip does nothing.  Most likely its molecular structure will break down and cause rust to form.  It may perhaps influence the organisms around it or it may develop into an organism itself.  No one can really be sure; however, I can guarantee you that it will not become something as complex and artifical as a CPU.

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Yes, it is a joke, but it's a joke with a point, which you grasped, but conveniently did not apply. And please notice I said unguided evolution.

Let's go back shall we? I'll lay out a scenario for you. In a time where there is NO life, no plants, no bacteria, just inanimate objects that make up the earth. Think rock and water. Everything is made of the same 92 naturally occuring elements correct? You are saying that somehow, by chance, these non-living elements combined to create some small bacteria from which everything else evolved correct? My suggestion that a paperclip (a metal) and sand (essentially silicon) can combine to form a complex NON-LIVING object is FAR more likely to occur than incredibly complex combinations of many elements combining to form life. But of course, you immediately dismiss my suggestion. Why? You understand that a processor may only come together in ONE way to function as a processor, yet refuse to acknowledge that life is same way, but is made of even more complex and delicate combinations. I don't see how life could NOT be designed.

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#90 thespin

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Posted 05 October 2005 - 09:52 AM

I'm ending this here as I can tell what thespin is trying to do.  He is merely taking whatever he can find on the web and citing the information, although he has no idea what it even means or what purpose it even serves to the discussion, in order to attempt to reduce my answers to a subject, event, or entity that I, or possibly even science, can not yet explain.  He will then attempt to appeal to ignorance claiming that since there is something I, or science, can't explain which he will then claim as a sign of Design.  This is merely a troll tactic that I will not tolerate.  Unless thespin has something to contribute to the discussion of whether ID is a science or not, his posts are merely grasps at straws with no real knowledge of the subject he is refering to.

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Aristotle, stop whining. I understand what I am citing. Among my multiple degrees is one in Chemistry. Nobody is fooled by your transparent claim that you are above it all. The fact is - you have no answer to my arguments and have therefore thrown in the towel - as you should. But be honest about it ...

"If today you hear His Voice, harden not your heart." Psalm 95: 7-8

Edited by thespin, 05 October 2005 - 10:04 AM.