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Id Vs. Evolution In Public Schools


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#25 hockeyrcks9901

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Posted 27 September 2005 - 05:07 PM

HOLY ****! Why do people have to argue of something like this. I am Christian but I completely agree with evolution. Most religious people would agree with me that evolution exists and is real. But I also believe that a devine being of somesort started the whole process. I find it hard to believe that life came out of nothing. Which is what a lot of schools teach, they say that however many billions of years ago, that life came out of the hot springs. I understand why if there was life, how it could evolve and survive, but I doubt that life came from nothing.

I also doubt that a supreme being just snapped their fingers and then we were here. Just like in politics, moderation is probably the most accurate way of doing things. But, by teaching ID, they are not saying that someone created us, but that someone *COULD* have created us. The same applies to evolution, we didn't have to come from monkeys or w/e, but we *MOST LIKELY* came from monkeys.

EDIT: O yea, btw, the constitution means that our government can't hold its own religious beliefs. It doesn't say our government can't talk about religion but that it can't force people into believing a religion that they don't want to.

Edited by hockeyrcks9901, 27 September 2005 - 05:17 PM.

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#26 Folding_Buddha

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Posted 27 September 2005 - 05:22 PM

I hope it goes through. How man was created is not 100% proven fact so it is not right that schools teach only evolution as if it were an absolute fact but at the same time they shouldn't teach creation as absolute fact either. They should teach both theories and let the students decide for themselves.

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yes evolution is a theory but it is backed up with tons of evadance, the bible on the other hand has what? nothing. The bible code has been proven wrong thanks to the moby Dick code
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#27 Kamikaze_Badger

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Posted 27 September 2005 - 08:00 PM

And finally, people who utilize their brains!

ID is NOT a science, for reasons that Aristotle stated. So really, I don't feel it should be taught as part of a science class. However, if it's put in maybe a seperate and optional class for higher grade students, around the subject of Other Cultural Beliefs or something, and taught as a belief of another religion spawned off of Zoroastrianism.
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I witnessed regional Special Olympics and Challenge Day; there's far more intellect there than there is in internet arguments.

#28 Iggy

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Posted 27 September 2005 - 08:13 PM

Exactly, it should be placed in a "values and beleifs" class that will cover a wide range of origin "theories".
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#29 thespin

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Posted 30 September 2005 - 06:49 PM

Here is the basic idea behind ID or Intelligent Design:
(the argument below does NOT refer to life issues or so-called evolution)

Hundreds of millions of people get in their various cars everyday and turn the ignition key expecting their engines to start and their vehicles, each composed of thousands of parts, to take them to their destinations. The shuttle composed of over a million parts recently returned from space after a successful trip to the space station. Astronomers study events which took place billions of years ago in places billions of miles away (if they are right) expecting that the laws discovered HERE in our solar system apply equally THEN/THERE also. The earth and other planets, their moons, the asteroids, the comets move with such mathematical precision that we recently intercepted a comet millions of miles away and hit it with a probe. I recently assembled a new computer from many very complex hard and soft components made by many manufacturers (I purchased them online from many vendors through a wonderful system - the Internet); when I turned this new computer on, it worked - first time.

ALL of modern man's technology, from the wedge to the Hubble telescope, and modern man's 'faith' in the same, depend on the precision and invariability of these natural laws. How explain also the simplicity of these laws which are integrated so harmoniously together to form a multifaceted Universe which no single man can even attempt to grasp ?

These laws are there. We discover them. And no one has been silly enough thus far, to my knowledge, to propose an evolutionary process to explain them.

Mathematical Precision, Invariability, Simplicity, Harmony.

* How a design and no designer ?

If you were to take a trip to the moon today, to a part where no man had been before, and you found a WWII B17 bomber, perfect to the last detail just as if it had just come off the assembly line in 1943, sitting on the moon's surface, would you accept the explanation that it was created by chance natural forces or it 'just happened' ? Even racists, unreasonable per se on race issues, postulate aliens to explain the pyramids.

* A truly incredible design, ergo … a designer …

Edited by thespin, 01 October 2005 - 11:03 PM.


#30 martymcfly

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Posted 30 September 2005 - 06:54 PM

there is a huge debate about this going on on digg:
http://digg.com/scie...ligent_design._

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#31 Kamikaze_Badger

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Posted 30 September 2005 - 06:57 PM

You're comparing two completely different things here with that statement.

Seriously, there's a difference between a man-made object that had no way of getting to an area, and the laws of physics taking their toll on something. When you're able to make coherent arguments, please come back.

EDIT: And please read this article if you're going to try to take down evolution.
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Graciously recommended from KB, is some muffricken Christian death metal. It is a must hear, it pushes envelopes, explores new ground. Words can't describe just now incredibly awesome this is. Cue the alter smashing, bench flipping, and bible reading while thrashing away at guitars and drums.

I witnessed regional Special Olympics and Challenge Day; there's far more intellect there than there is in internet arguments.

#32 climberdude

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Posted 30 September 2005 - 07:31 PM

reading this topic made me wonder. i agree with you all that ID is not a science in any way shape or form. why was it ever taught in schools to begin with? because there was no other explanation. its like how in ancient Greek religion natural occurances were attrubuted to the Gods. we are beyond these mystical beleifs, as i see it. i have no problem with religion, and beleive in God my self. but this ID "theory" is only an explanation of that wich was at the time inexplicable. it is not longer so, and should not be treated as such. there is a much more valid and supported argument in evolution, and the need to say things as stark as "God created everything, nothing changed, period" is gone.

edit: i have no problem with people believing this "theory" but it has NO place in our educational system
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#33 martymcfly

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Posted 30 September 2005 - 08:37 PM

"I see no good reasons why the views given in this volume should shock the religious sensibilities of anyone." -- Charles Darwin, The Origin Of Species, 1869.

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#34 Kamikaze_Badger

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Posted 30 September 2005 - 09:01 PM

19th century style ownage :P.
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Graciously recommended from KB, is some muffricken Christian death metal. It is a must hear, it pushes envelopes, explores new ground. Words can't describe just now incredibly awesome this is. Cue the alter smashing, bench flipping, and bible reading while thrashing away at guitars and drums.

I witnessed regional Special Olympics and Challenge Day; there's far more intellect there than there is in internet arguments.

#35 thespin

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Posted 01 October 2005 - 11:17 PM

Please see my post #30 in this thread (bottom of page 2). The argument I make there for ID makes no reference to the life issues.

If you want to know the truth about the 'theory of evolution', please read Evolution by world famous microbiologist Michael Denton.

The evolutionists try to confuse the ID issue with junk science. But if we remove the life issue from the argument and just deal with the natural laws discovered by Physicists, Chemists, pure science in other words, what explanation is there for these laws which WE DID NOT MAKE OURSELVES but only discover and use ? All our technology depend on them. They never change. There are there. We use them. The computer your are using RIGHT NOW was designed by engineers who studied and used these natural laws to make your computer work.

I am a Physicist myself. Who made these natural laws ?

Edited by thespin, 01 October 2005 - 11:24 PM.


#36 Kamikaze_Badger

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Posted 01 October 2005 - 11:26 PM

Because what was up here was useless, it's now gone.

The way your presenting your argument, you're pretty much saying that because we don't know how things ultimately came to be, it must of been made by a divine creator. We hardly comprehend time and existence right now. Most religions were formed to answer questions such as that, and to give some people a peace of mind, or a way to scare their kids into doing the right things.

This debate could go on forever without getting anywhere. The way I see it, we've barely begun to scratch the surface of physics, and while our minds are very complex, we still are unable to grasp time and existence in their raw forms. Hell, I still don't see why nothing can travel faster then c, and why part of a signal sped up past that would not remain light.

Well, I'll leave this debate for now and agree to disagree with you, while I go try to understand quantum phsyics some more.
Is my Razer Diamondback retro yet?
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Graciously recommended from KB, is some muffricken Christian death metal. It is a must hear, it pushes envelopes, explores new ground. Words can't describe just now incredibly awesome this is. Cue the alter smashing, bench flipping, and bible reading while thrashing away at guitars and drums.

I witnessed regional Special Olympics and Challenge Day; there's far more intellect there than there is in internet arguments.