[Poll Closed] What Do You Believe?

[Onion]

Well, it seems that the friendly discussion is ending.

[El_Capitan]

Well, it seems that the friendly discussion is ending.

Nothing about friendly. Was about keeping it civil.

[Onion]

Nothing about friendly. Was about keeping it civil.

 

That's what I meant, sorry. In French we say "amical" which translates to friendly but means (and implies) civil.

 

(I mentioned that because my first language is French and I translate my thoughts into English, that's why I make weird mistakes sometimes. )

[bp9801]

I know full well, I just cared very little about the millions of sects of Christianity.

 

The church generally is the catholic church. Unless you are totally devoid of western style religion (I consider Judaism an eastern style) or religion in general, the catholic church is The church.

 

Again, I draw on historical reference for that as well.

 

You should really start watching your tone. Don't need to be hostile to everyone as that will get you nowhere fast. Like I said before, avoid sweeping generalizations when stating your answers.

 

Judaism is not an Eastern religion, and neither is Islam. An Eastern religion is more like Hinduism, Buddhism, Taoism, and the like. Basically, Eastern religions are polytheistic and Western religions are monotheistic. Christianity, Judaism, and Islam all have one God (Western/Abrahamic) while Hinduism, Buddhism, Taoism, and similar ones have multiple Gods (Eastern).

[Locutus]

The Catholic Church. Not the church in general.

Did you seriously just start an argument about the word church?

 

Clearly if I'm talking about Catholicism I'm referring to the Catholic Churches.

 

I wouldn't expect Baptists to blindly follow the Pope since he doesn't have any control over anything that happens in their churches.

[wevsspot]

According to scriptures in the new testament Christ described the church as the body of Christ. I don't believe that Jesus conceived nor advocated a "church" as a building or type of religious affiliation or religious sect. In another part of scripture (as noted in another post) Jesus taught his followers that when two or more of them gathered together that he would be there with them. As Bowtie points out earlier, there isn't any scriptual support for the concept that you have to attend or belong to a certain church in order to go to heaven. In fact, most Christians understand that the only requirement for salvation in the Christian religion is the acceptance of Jesus Christ as God's one and only son, that Christ died on the cross for anyone that would accept his salvation, and that you repent for your sins and accept Jesus Christ as your savior. It really is that simple. Born again Catholics are Christians, but not all Christians are Catholic. The Catholic church just happened to be the first organized and state recognized church that developed from the teachings of Jesus and his disciples.

 

But long before, underground Christians were gathering together and sharing the gospel. Early Christians were persecuted, prosecuted, tortured and even martyred - hence the underground and secretive gatherings. From there congregations were birthed and those eventually matured into churches. So why do Christians attend church?

 

My primary reasons for attending church are;

 

1. Fellowship with other believers - support, friendship, community

2. The belief that when 2 or more are gathered together Christ is present in a very real and personal way

3. Instruction and learning

4. Encouragement to share the gospel outside the walls of our church.

 

We belong to a small Church of God Assembly and I'm privy to finances. I can tell you unequivocally that every single penny tithed or gifted to our church goes to; missionary and outreach programs, upkeep of our small facility, paying our pastoral staff and special events. In that order. Sure mega-churches make millions, but you can be assured that the thousands of other small churches struggle on a weekly basis to make ends meet. But we believe that God will provide, and he does. Our pastor and his family (like many around the world) work for next to nothing, no pension plan, no health insurance, no living stipend and a very very small salary.

 

Today Christianity (at it's purest form) is a religion of choice. I won't marginalize, criticize or proselytize anyone who follows another religious belief or those who don't believe at all. I'll happily share my thoughts, experiences and belief with you though, in hopes that God can use something I say or more importantly something I do to have a positive impact on your life. And maybe, just maybe that leads you to ask more questions about what I believe and why I believe it.

Edited June 4, 2012 by wevsspot

[El_Capitan]

A few questions to those that are religious. Two are theoretical, the other two have happened, unfortunately.

 

What would it take to convince you to stop believing in your religion?

1. Extraterrestrials are found outside of Earth. They can be non-intelligent, or intelligent. To go even further, suppose they are more intelligent than us, and either don't believe in any form of religion, or they follow something quite different than the religions we follow.

 

2. Time viewing (not time travel) becomes possible. Think of it like a mini wormhole where you can open it up to any point in the past to observe what happened in real-time. What if we found out the real origin of religious texts and the people in those stories were just made up or exaggerated by ordinary people? For example, say Jesus's mother Mary was really raped by a Roman soldier (she probably didn't want people knowing Jesus was a bastard, so made up the story that God made her pregnant) and Jesus was just a gifted human.

 

3. Religious Sports Legends end up losing. You know, the undefeated boxer that thanks his win to God... he loses to another religious boxer, or even a non-religious one. I guess God didn't want him to win that fight that time.

 

4. Incredible slaughtering of innocent people. Say you witness thousands or even millions of men, women, and children being raped, tortured, and killed at the whims of other people. All those that prayed to God for protection only seem to get protected after they die. If life's so important, why isn't it important enough for it to be protected by God Himself?

 

I'm sure that #1 won't change people's beliefs. #2 actually might, but some people don't want to stop believing even after they know the truth. It just becomes so innate, that it becomes a part of their lives, whether what really happened in the past was true or not.

 

#3 and #4 are just for the hell of conversation.

[Deathmineral]

A few questions to those that are religious. Two are theoretical, the other two have happened, unfortunately.

 

What would it take to convince you to stop believing in your religion?

1. Extraterrestrials are found outside of Earth. They can be non-intelligent, or intelligent. To go even further, suppose they are more intelligent than us, and either don't believe in any form of religion, or they follow something quite different than the religions we follow.

 

2. Time viewing (not time travel) becomes possible. Think of it like a mini wormhole where you can open it up to any point in the past to observe what happened in real-time. What if we found out the real origin of religious texts and the people in those stories were just made up or exaggerated by ordinary people? For example, say Jesus's mother Mary was really raped by a Roman soldier (she probably didn't want people knowing Jesus was a bastard, so made up the story that God made her pregnant) and Jesus was just a gifted human.

 

3. Religious Sports Legends end up losing. You know, the undefeated boxer that thanks his win to God... he loses to another religious boxer, or even a non-religious one. I guess God didn't want him to win that fight that time.

 

4. Incredible slaughtering of innocent people. Say you witness thousands or even millions of men, women, and children being raped, tortured, and killed at the whims of other people. All those that prayed to God for protection only seem to get protected after they die. If life's so important, why isn't it important enough for it to be protected by God Himself?

 

I'm sure that #1 won't change people's beliefs. #2 actually might, but some people don't want to stop believing even after they know the truth. It just becomes so innate, that it becomes a part of their lives, whether what really happened in the past was true or not.

 

#3 and #4 are just for the hell of conversation.

Honestly, I don't think any of that would change most believers. From what I've seen, very religious people will justify and bend anything until it works. Not sure if anyone here remembers my post about Minecraft being better at making worlds than God, but anyway, I told that to a friend of mine the other day who has played Minecraft and is a big Christian, his response was that days were much shorter and time was an entirely different thing back then, he equated 7 days back then to 5 seconds in the present.

 

I'm not trying to step on toes here but I think when it comes to a person that already believes in something that can't be proven, it's pretty realistic to think they will make up as much stuff as they have to in order to make it work.

[Onion]

Honestly, I don't think any of that would change most believers. From what I've seen, very religious people will justify and bend anything until it works. Not sure if anyone here remembers my post about Minecraft being better at making worlds than God, but anyway, I told that to a friend of mine the other day who has played Minecraft and is a big Christian, his response was that days were much shorter and time was an entirely different thing back then, he equated 7 days back then to 5 seconds in the present.

 

I'm not trying to step on toes here but I think when it comes to a person that already believes in something that can't be proven, it's pretty realistic to think they will make up as much stuff as they have to in order to make it work.

 

Simple answer. I've seen the very religious people answer all of those questions (and more) with "God wanted it to be as such."

[wevsspot]

Cap, Death & Onion - I'm not sure how believers would react or if it would change their belief system if any one of the four scenarios listed above came to fruition. There certainly isn't any plausible answer to questions #3 or #4. And those types of questions are asked often (among believers - and even by me). All I can say is that I don't know everything. And neither does any other person alive or dead.

 

As for question #2 - if that were the circumstance and it were proven beyond a reasonable doubt - then it would surely influence my beliefs, because at that point what I consider to be the truth of God's word would be in question. However, you're proposing "what if scenarios" that to me seem as far flung as some of our religious beliefs may seem to others.

 

Question #1 - Personally I believe that there is intelligent life out in the universe. It's not such a stretch to imagine that in the vastness of space there exists other life forms. Again, no where in the bible I study and read does it say that mankind is exclusive to the universe, or that we are the most important creation of God in the entire universe, nor does it explicitly tell me that God did not create other beings on other worlds. The bible I read does speak to mankind's uniqueness and God's love for his creation here on earth, but it certainly doesn't exclude that he may have other creations out there that he loves equally.

 

Maybe it is THE grand social experiment. A vast universe with thousands or millions of different intelligent creations - all left to free will, self determination and freedom of choice. And God is just weighing each to see who measures up in the end.............. For all of our sakes I hope not. Because frankly, I think as a species humans are a huge fail for the most part. I'll give that we are clever, intelligent, adaptive and many many many folks are "good" at their core. But unfortunately there is a dark side to human nature. And like Newton's 3rd law, for every action there is always an equal and opposite reaction.

Edited June 5, 2012 by wevsspot

[Onion]

Interesting analogy about Newton's 3rd law there, wev.

[Stonerboy779]

Interesting analogy about Newton's 3rd law there, wev.

Who said religion and science couldn't go together

 

I have scientific discussions from time to time with my irish catholic grandma who attends service every week and has done all her life. Her current grief is people going on about climate change. Climate change happens and our climate is actually pretty damn stable while we have been around.