Fogel Posted June 1, 2012 Posted June 1, 2012 Burden of proof is on the believer. You've heard it all before, unless you've been living under a rock. You do realize we lack "proof" on quite bit of our scientific data, right? Scientists believe things that are no where close to being proven yet. At best we have scientific data that supports certain beliefs. Even proving things in a court system isn't 100%. There is almost always some doubt. At some point you have to make a judgement call. I believe there is intelligent life outside of Earth, but I have absolutely no proof to support that claim. What I disagree with is trying to find answers to questions with God being the answer. We then lose focus on not being biased by what we find. If God exists, and he Created all that we know, then He would be the final Answer to all things. If not, then we're just wasting time. Science: Ask a Question -> Formulate Hypotheses and Predict the Outcome -> Test -> Analyze the Results and compare against Prediction God: Ask a Question -> God is the Answer -> Rationalize how it makes sense with God being the Answer -> Answer is God was the reason Without Science, we wouldn't know so much about our Natural History. Without Science, religious people would never know why God created so much diversity that wasn't mentioned in the Bible. Religion makes God "fit" into their findings, rather than leaving Him out of the equation. It's the only way for religions to stay existent, otherwise they'd just end up as Myths like the Greek Gods. I find this path of thinking to the exact opposite, and I don't subscribe to any radical viewpoints. So let me ask you this, why must the two be mutually exclusive? Why is not possible for God to have created the universe and just let everything take its course? Is there absolutely no way structure (we humans call it science) can be a part of his creation? If we assume God exists and we assume there is structure to his creation, then it is still in our best interest to solve the science behind his creation. Only people who want to remain ignorant would believe that science is a waste of time, and this drive to be ignorant is not God's fault. In addition to whether God exists or not, there are many things we will never know. Scientists believe the universe is expanding ...but what is it expanding into? ...is it a void? ...is there anything beyond the void? How large is the universe? What created the universe? ...if it was formed in a void, how does a void just spontaneously combust? ...especially into what we see now? It would break the laws of matter. The Big Bang Theory assumes a given state prior to the bang with nothing to support that state or its surroundings and even if you assumed the intial state prior to the explosion ...what created the initial state? The law of Consveration of Mass states mass cannot be created, destroyed ...only rearranged ...so where did the mass come from for the Big Bang to happen? There are so many holes in the BBT singularity model and massive assumptions just to get it to be plausible. No matter the side of the fence you fall on, you are believing in something that can't be proven. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Waco Posted June 1, 2012 Posted June 1, 2012 No matter the side of the fence you fall on, you are believing in something that can't be proven. No matter what the subject - you can't really prove anything, ever, except maybe with math. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
El_Capitan Posted June 1, 2012 Posted June 1, 2012 Well, that's the catch. If you believe in God, you're believing in something that can't be proven until it proves itself. If a higher being came to you and said He was God (think of Q from Star Trek), and you asked him to "Prove that He was God", how can He prove it? Maybe he just has powers you can comprehend, but that doesn't necessarily prove that he's God. If you don't believe in God, you believe what you believe by making a judgement call. If someone asked me if I believed in God, I'd say which one, and continue from there. I'd sometimes answer that if I did believe in a God (or Gods), it'd be the Greek ones, 'cause they're exciting. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
wevsspot Posted June 1, 2012 Posted June 1, 2012 Some interesting reading; http://www.dailygalaxy.com/my_weblog/2011/01/updated-new-theory-a-hidden-universe-could-exist-inside-every-black-hole.html and http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-18273140 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fogel Posted June 1, 2012 Posted June 1, 2012 No matter what the subject - you can't really prove anything, ever, except maybe with math. Exactly! Well, that's the catch. If you believe in God, you're believing in something that can't be proven until it proves itself. If a higher being came to you and said He was God (think of Q from Star Trek), and you asked him to "Prove that He was God", how can He prove it? Maybe he just has powers you can comprehend, but that doesn't necessarily prove that he's God. If you don't believe in God, you believe what you believe by making a judgement call. If someone asked me if I believed in God, I'd say which one, and continue from there. I'd sometimes answer that if I did believe in a God (or Gods), it'd be the Greek ones, 'cause they're exciting. I'm not exactly sure what your point is to be honest. If someone came to me saying he was God I would think it is some dude with mental issues. I do not think God has to prove himself (for lack of a better pronoun) so the idea he would for the sake of it seems silly. Even if he does exist who is to say that we will even learn the truth one way or another? The idea of heaven sounds nice but I'm not living my life on the promise of heaven. If it does exist and I'm chosen to go there then it will be a very nice surprise. If it doesn't exist then oh well. For me believing in God is just another belief - like believing in aliens. Only difference is I say thanks to God and choose not to speak to aliens. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hyper Threaded Posted June 1, 2012 Posted June 1, 2012 You do realize we lack "proof" on quite bit of our scientific data, right? Scientists believe things that are no where close to being proven yet. At best we have scientific data that supports certain beliefs. Even proving things in a court system isn't 100%. There is almost always some doubt. At some point you have to make a judgement call. You see, that's the problem I have. Millions of people have the god delusion, they believe what the church tells them, without question. Just because something isn't completely known, you don't defer to god. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tjj226_Angel Posted June 1, 2012 Posted June 1, 2012 You see, that's the problem I have. Millions of people have the god delusion, they believe what the church tells them, without question. Just because something isn't completely known, you don't defer to god. True, and blind faith is another issue. Soooo many people believe in god simply because that is all they know. How many children, young adults, adults and so on do you know that have actually explored other religions or science? Very little. I think if we actually did a poll of all people on this planet we would find that 80 percent of people don't believe in god, but rather conformed to it. For instance, I have to say the the Muslim faith is not bad. If you take away all the political nonsense and the Sharia Law it is actually a very appealing school of idealism. I am not saying that I would turn Muslim, but do you think a catholic family would ever explore or understand another god but their own? Probably not. In this sense you have to start to think that if people explored other religions, would they convert? And if they would, did they ever truly believe in their own religion, or did they think they believed it simply because they were under the illusion that it was the only choice? Basically the idea of deferring to god is a much bigger idea than people give it credit for because I would bet money on the fact that people defer right from the start on their own religious beliefs all together. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fogel Posted June 1, 2012 Posted June 1, 2012 You see, that's the problem I have. Millions of people have the god delusion, they believe what the church tells them, without question. Just because something isn't completely known, you don't defer to god. That is a problem with humans, not God. This is also why I'm not a fan of Church ...or really I should say, Organized Religion. It is run by people and people have agendas. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
dr_bowtie Posted June 2, 2012 Posted June 2, 2012 well lucky for them you do NOT have to attend Church to get into Heaven.... Most denominations will tell you that you have to go to Church... that is False you do not... you can be a practicing Christian and not attend any church Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tjj226_Angel Posted June 2, 2012 Posted June 2, 2012 well lucky for them you do NOT have to attend Church to get into Heaven.... Most denominations will tell you that you have to go to Church... that is False you do not... you can be a practicing Christian and not attend any church Yes, but that it is a Luther ideal. Protestants = do whatever you feel like but there is a god Catholics = Do everything exactly as I say or you will go to hell. The Roman catholics do have to go to church because one of the popes said that it was imperative that people go. Since the pope is thought of as a medium for god to speak to humans, it was pretty much religious law. This was back in the feudal era of europe when the king and the pope were at odds with each other, and the pope wanted more power than the king. What would be a better way to get more dominance and control than by forcing people to come to a church where you can manipulate them by hiding behind a god? But that is besides the point. So it actually is a requirement for certain Christian sects to attend church. Any Christian sect that modified its practice on the manuscripts written by Luther does not require church. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stonerboy779 Posted June 2, 2012 Posted June 2, 2012 I would appreciate it if you weren't so general about religions. That's a whole lot of ignorant bs there. I may not be the most devout Catholic but even if I wasn't the way you have described things is nothing short of ignorant and offensive to many. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
dr_bowtie Posted June 2, 2012 Posted June 2, 2012 Yes, but that it is a Luther ideal. Protestants = do whatever you feel like but there is a god Catholics = Do everything exactly as I say or you will go to hell. The Roman catholics do have to go to church because one of the popes said that it was imperative that people go. Since the pope is thought of as a medium for god to speak to humans, it was pretty much religious law. This was back in the feudal era of europe when the king and the pope were at odds with each other, and the pope wanted more power than the king. What would be a better way to get more dominance and control than by forcing people to come to a church where you can manipulate them by hiding behind a god? But that is besides the point. So it actually is a requirement for certain Christian sects to attend church. Any Christian sect that modified its practice on the manuscripts written by Luther does not require church. could be but it doesnt say this in the Bible and thats the issue with most all religions... people take the scripture word out of context... just because someone tells you that you should or you have too doesnt mean you should... its like telling someone they must jump off a bridge to live... thats just not going to fly literally... Like I said I have studied religion of several dialects and different denominations and the churches all seem to be about the same thing now a days... organized religion followed by the offering plate... I have been to Northern Churches and Southern Churches and there is a HUGE difference and reference... I can tell you this much... of all the people in life I've ever met.... people who attend Church on a regular basis have a better disposition on life... they seem to have a better attitude and in general are happier people... I've never met a truly angry pissed off person who frequented church... that I've always wondered about... never met a grumpy church goer... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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