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For all the would be software pirates.

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A good read on this... subjectivity vs objectivity is C.S. Lewis's "The Abolition of Man". This is not one of his religious books but three or four lectures he gave at Cambridge University. It is one of the permanent books that stays on my Kindle.

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A good read on this... subjectivity vs objectivity is C.S. Lewis's "The Abolition of Man". This is not one of his religious books but three or four lectures he gave at Cambridge University. It is one of the permanent books that stays on my Kindle.

Looks like a pretty interesting book, I think I might give it a try, though I'm not much of a reader, unless it's comic books. :lol: After reading some reviews on the book though it definitely seems to cover a lot of what we're discussing in the thread now so it might be an enlightening read for me.

 

I love Morel Orel :lol:

I'm not a big fan of the show myself but I think it fits into this thread well at the moment and makes for a good laugh and break from too much seriousness. :D

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I have not seen Moral Orel but sense morals are not argued from a religious bases in C.S. Lewis's "The Abolition of Man" I do not understand what you mean.

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Debate all you want over whether this is a casual discussion or not. I believe it depends solely on the individual. Here's why:

 

Do you see piracy as a moral debate or a legal one?

 

If one is to debate whether or not piracy is moral or, rather, morally acceptably by someones standards, it is independent from its legality. The legal debate revolves around the individuals viewpoint of the proprietary-ness or copyrights of information / software; NOT the ethics about how it is obtained.

 

 

I'll admit of empathizing with piracy on the grounds of obtaining information that is no longer available through legitimate sources, but I can't morally agree with the "demoing" of software (including games).

 

I use very very expensive software at work, maybe this will add some perspective. When one company has to pay for its use in order to provide a product or service, it is an assumed operating cost. Now consider another company that, is more morally flexible and is using illegally obtained software to cut costs. So, not only is it theft, it is an unfair advantage when competing in a capitalistic market (which is even more disgusting in my opinion). Sure, you may argue that games are far less harmful...but, where do you draw the line? It's all software. Period.

 

:popcorn:

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Debate all you want over whether this is a casual discussion or not. I believe it depends solely on the individual. Here's why:

 

Do you see piracy as a moral debate or a legal one?

 

If one is to debate whether or not piracy is moral or, rather, morally acceptably by someones standards, it is independent from its legality. The legal debate revolves around the individuals viewpoint of the proprietary-ness or copyrights of information / software; NOT the ethics about how it is obtained.

 

 

I'll admit of empathizing with piracy on the grounds of obtaining information that is no longer available through legitimate sources, but I can't morally agree with the "demoing" of software (including games).

 

I use very very expensive software at work, maybe this will add some perspective. When one company has to pay for its use in order to provide a product or service, it is an assumed operating cost. Now consider another company that, is more morally flexible and is using illegally obtained software to cut costs. So, not only is it theft, it is an unfair advantage when competing in a capitalistic market (which is even more disgusting in my opinion). Sure, you may argue that games are far less harmful...but, where do you draw the line? It's all software. Period.

 

:popcorn:

What's that? A company with an unfair advantage in a capitalistic market? Why... that's simply unheard of. :teehee:

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What's that? A company with an unfair advantage in a capitalistic market? Why... that's simply unheard of. :teehee:

 

Don't get me started... :whistling:

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Ok so I want to argue for the existence of objective morals by appealing to the inadequacy of personal relativistic morals.

 

Objective morals = morals which, under the same set of circumstances, applies to all people, across all times and at all places. When you talk about morals in this sense you are appealing to something outside of yourself - an object.

Subjective morals = morals which are based merely on opinion/personal preference and thus do not apply to all people equally under the same set of circumstances. When you talk about morals in this sense you are talking about yourself - the subject

 

The fact of the matter is we all live life as if we believe morals are objective. I can prove this to you by cutting in line in front of you or stealing something from you. If given the opportunity, you will try to stop me or protest at my actions. This shows that we as people believe morals are not mere opinions because if that were true, you wouldn't protest nor try to stop me.

 

In other words, by protesting you are saying that your moral view is not only your own but applies to me (or who ever else is acting immorally by your standards) as well. But if morals were subjective then it would mean that if my moral view allows me to steal your stuff, by definition, it is moral for me to do so and you shouldn't stop me - your morals don't apply to me.

 

What this shows is that the logical conclusion of personal relativistic morality leads to the absurd consequence that we cannot protest if someone does something we think is wrong. Thus the assumption that personal moral relativism is true in invalid leaving only one alternative: that objective moral truths exist.

 

Sorry for a slightly long post but does that make sense? :dunno:

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i know a guy who pirated BF3, CoD MW3, MW2, MW1, WaW, Crysis 2, Black Ops, Dead Island, Skyrim ect.

And continues to do so. i got most of my games for under $20 :biggrin: Except for crysis 2 and BF3.

Pirating is for cheap as*holes, its why we have DRM in the first place!!!!

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Ok so I want to argue for the existence of objective morals by appealing to the inadequacy of personal relativistic morals.

 

Objective morals = morals which, under the same set of circumstances, applies to all people, across all times and at all places. When you talk about morals in this sense you are appealing to something outside of yourself - an object.

Subjective morals = morals which are based merely on opinion/personal preference and thus do not apply to all people equally under the same set of circumstances. When you talk about morals in this sense you are talking about yourself - the subject

 

The fact of the matter is we all live life as if we believe morals are objective. I can prove this to you by cutting in line in front of you or stealing something from you. If given the opportunity, you will try to stop me or protest at my actions. This shows that we as people believe morals are not mere opinions because if that were true, you wouldn't protest nor try to stop me.

 

In other words, by protesting you are saying that your moral view is not only your own but applies to me (or who ever else is acting immorally by your standards) as well. But if morals were subjective then it would mean that if my moral view allows me to steal your stuff, by definition, it is moral for me to do so and you shouldn't stop me - your morals don't apply to me.

 

What this shows is that the logical conclusion of personal relativistic morality leads to the absurd consequence that we cannot protest if someone does something we think is wrong. Thus the assumption that personal moral relativism is true in invalid leaving only one alternative: that objective moral truths exist.

 

Sorry for a slightly long post but does that make sense? :dunno:

Nope, doesn't make a bit of sense.

 

If what you say is true, then how is it possible for someone to cut in line and others don't say anything? Just because you apply your morals to someone else, doesn't mean they have to accept it, and if that person has different morals than you, you don't have to accept them either.

 

If what you say is true, how is possible for Robin Hood to be portrayed as the good guy in the story?

 

i know a guy who pirated BF3, CoD MW3, MW2, MW1, WaW, Crysis 2, Black Ops, Dead Island, Skyrim ect.

And continues to do so. i got most of my games for under $20 :biggrin: Except for crysis 2 and BF3.

Pirating is for cheap as*holes, its why we have DRM in the first place!!!!

Nobody is twisting the arms of EA, Activision, or Bethesda executives, they choose to use DRM, not pirates. You can't blame people for things they can't control.

 

Do you also blame Justin Beiber or Britney Spears for what the paparazzi does? No, they can't control it, the only person that can control the guy in the bush with a camera is the guy in the bush with the camera.

 

Do you blame the delivery boy for a pizza that is missing the cheese? Do you blame the candle for being on fire? Do you blame the donut for when you get fat?

 

If you want to play the blame game, play it proper. Whoever is in charge of deciding whether to use DRM or not at a company is the one to blame if the game has DRM.

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