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InCrYsIs

For all the would be software pirates.

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Killing is justified when the value of the oil is greater than thay of human life.

 

Or so it would seem.

 

As you can see you can justify anything with any reason no matter how poor. Just because you can justify killing or pirating or any other crime ect. It wont necessarily make it right.

 

Yes I punched that person, who had done nothing wrong by me because I felt like hitting something.

 

There is my justification "i felt like hitting something" although this brings up another issue I may be able to justify to myself, by this reasoning this action. However such reasoning will likely not justify the action to others.

 

/ramble

You bring up 2 good points.

 

Firstly coming up with "justifications" for you action doesn't necessarily mean that they actually justify you in reality.

They may seem like good reasons for you but most of the time they are insufficient.

 

For example and getting back on the topic at hand: someone might think that wanting to "test-drive" a game is a sufficient enough justification for pirating but this doesn't mean it's really a good reason in the end. They could be wrong and I believe they are wrong due to the argument I gave prior.

 

The second point you made I will put in question form: Who ultimately gets to decide whether your justifications are adequate?

 

EDIT: Removed a line

Edited by Alexandre

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Ok so people have different opinions about what it means to be moral - but does it then follow that they are merely opinions (your claim) - that there is no correct answer?

 

 

You bring up 2 good points.

 

Firstly coming up with "justifications" for you action doesn't necessarily mean that they actually justify you in reality.

They may seem like good reasons for you but most of the time they are insufficient.

 

For example and getting back on the topic at hand: someone might think that wanting to "test-drive" a game is a sufficient enough justification for pirating but this doesn't mean it's really a good reason in the end. They could be wrong and I believe they are wrong due to the argument I gave prior. Hence the 15 or so page discussion in this thread.

 

The second point you made I will put in question form: Who ultimately gets to decide whether your justifications are adequate?

I'll just throw those two posts together. Who has the correct answer?

 

Well I suppose that's something everyone wants to know. :lol:

 

Sadly morals aren't scientific, there aren't any facts to be had, it's all a mixture of emotion and feelings. Honestly, I think you're trying too hard to have a proper discussion on piracy, it's a lot more fun if you just treat it like casual chat.

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I'll just throw those two posts together. Who has the correct answer?

 

Well I suppose that's something everyone wants to know. :lol:

 

Sadly morals aren't scientific, there aren't any facts to be had, it's all a mixture of emotion and feelings. Honestly, I think you're trying too hard to have a proper discussion on piracy, it's a lot more fun if you just treat it like casual chat.

:P Sorry if my premise form argument put you off lol. I am actually treating this like a casual chat among friends. I honestly want to hear what you guys think and why you think it :popcorn:

 

Well you just basically repeated your claim again and said "morality is mere opinion" in different words :lol:

 

I hope you can see that it doesn't follow that there is no correct answer from your observations before.

 

Do you have any other reasons why you believe it's mere opinion?

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:P Sorry if my premise form argument put you off lol. I am actually treating this like a casual chat among friends. I honestly want to hear what you guys think and why you think it :popcorn:

 

Well you just basically repeated your claim again and said "morality is mere opinion" in different words :lol:

 

I hope you can see that it doesn't follow that there is no correct answer from your observations before.

 

Do you have any other reasons why you believe it's mere opinion?

I mean it either has to be fact or opinion, I don't know of any other options. To the best of my knowledge there isn't anything to support that morals are factual.

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I mean it either has to be fact or opinion, I don't know of any other options. To the best of my knowledge there isn't anything to support that morals are factual.

:lol: I can use the same argument in reverse.

 

EDIT: The only reason I ask you these questions is because you said you believe morals are mere opinion and so my argument is invalid but if there is no sufficient reason to believe it's mere opinion then my argument stands.

Edited by Alexandre

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:lol: I can use the same argument in reverse.

 

EDIT: The only reason I ask you these questions is because you said you believe morals are mere opinion and so my argument is invalid but if there is no sufficient reason to believe it's mere opinion then my argument stands.

Okay, let me spell it out then, you haven't provided anything to convince me that morals aren't mere opinions.

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If morals were a fact then they would be identical to all cultures when they discover them. Facts are not arbitrary so they should be the same whenever they are found.

Throughout history though as cultures are discovered different morals were often found. In the US we bury the dead and to disturb them is offensive, but in some cultures their dead are dug up and celebrated once a year, or some other regular period. We consider human sacrifice to be wrong, yet many cultures felt they were required to satisfy the gods and receive peace, safety, and food. In our own past it was moral to keep slaves, now it is not. In ancient Greece it was felt completely moral and even required for a good marriage, for a husband to keep a prostitute, and now that's grounds for divorce.

Would you like more? It may take some time for me to remember additional examples of morality changing based on time and culture, but I'm hopeful the point has been made.

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Okay, let me spell it out then, you haven't provided anything to convince me that morals aren't mere opinions.

Ah but it is irrelevent whether I can show you that it is not mere opinion because then we will still have no good reason to suggest either is the case.

 

You still made a claim that needs evidence/reasons to believe just as much as I do for my implicit claim that morality is object which I made when I said "Stealing is immoral".

 

I'll be happy to give reasons as to why I think morality is objective but not tonight (its almost 2:00 am here in Australia) - talk to you tomorrow. :cheers:

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The latter.

 

I wonder, for those who put the stealing of physical property right alongside copyright infringement, what if you've already bought the game and it doesn't work any more? IE: the pirated version will work, but the copy you own will not, due to incompatible DRM (this isn't exactly uncommon). Are you still stealing? :lol:

 

nope, i got that once, downloaded it and played it (I didn't have to use a crack tough, I own the cd)

btw what do you do when EA decides to close your forum account cause you said that their game was crap?

You cant't play a single game you bought from them. My point of view is that companys like ea and activision are

just as much thieves as pirates. This doesn't justify paricy tough

 

another thing, you are not actually stealing if you pirate, cause there is no physical item. It is more like to result in

less people that are going to buy the game. And if there wasn't piracy, the effect would be the same since most people dont know

that the game is good and don't buy it.

 

then again, I do not personaly agree with piracy, thats just my moral stance

 

pps dont get mad ed

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If morals were a fact then they would be identical to all cultures when they discover them. Facts are not arbitrary so they should be the same whenever they are found.

Throughout history though as cultures are discovered different morals were often found. In the US we bury the dead and to disturb them is offensive, but in some cultures their dead are dug up and celebrated once a year, or some other regular period. We consider human sacrifice to be wrong, yet many cultures felt they were required to satisfy the gods and receive peace, safety, and food. In our own past it was moral to keep slaves, now it is not. In ancient Greece it was felt completely moral and even required for a good marriage, for a husband to keep a prostitute, and now that's grounds for divorce.

Would you like more? It may take some time for me to remember additional examples of morality changing based on time and culture, but I'm hopeful the point has been made.

Offensive =/= immoral btw

 

So far I have claimed that stealing is immoral - which implicitly assumes that morals are objective. To clarify however I don't believe every moral code is object (ie definition of modesty would fall into the category of a subjective moral) but my belief is that there are objective morals (like stealing) which apply to all people under the same set of circumstances, at all times and in all locations.

 

You have given a few examples of different moral codes across different cultures/times but that still isn't evidence to suggest that morals are merely subjective (based only on opinion). Just because there is a disagreement doesn't mean there is no right answer.

 

Anyway I'll give my reasoning tomorrow when I can. :cheers:

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