For all the would be software pirates.

[Waco]

I have a back-up of all of my games. Wether I have copied them myself or downloaded them isn't any different to a game company. I have 2 cats and roomates who aren't to carful with my things. My back-ups have come in handy more times than once.

Same here, for any game with a disc.

[Guest_Jim_*]

I'm sorry, but I have to respond to this. How is it not stealing? You are still taking something you have no legal right to. You are depriving the producer of the content of their requested compensation for their efforts. It is stealing whether you download it or if you pocketed something in a store.

It's not stealing because it's not. It's copyright infringement. Yes, it's illegal, I'm not disputing that. I just firmly believe there are many legitimate reasons to download something and that it shouldn't be inherently illegal. IE: broken disc, no more support, demo use, etc.

 

I'm not depriving anyone of a sale by downloading something to function as a demo. I will not buy a game without trying it out in some form unless I'm absolutely sure I'll like it. If anything, publishers GAIN sales through piracy since it allows people to try a game out before plunking down a fairly large chunk of change on it. Many, many, people won't do the latter without having played it in some form first.

Then how is copyright infringement not stealing? It may be a different name but it is still the act of taking something you have no legal right to. The only possible difference is whether a tangible item was taken, but it is still something was taken.

As I was attempting to point out later in the post, it doesn't matter if you think, or I think, there are legitimate reasons for downloading a game. The fact still is your act was illegal whether it leads to a sale or not.

Okay, let me try this. WE AGREE ABOUT DEMOS!!! Right now the only argument going on is about if 'legitimate' reasons matter or not. I say they don't as far as legality goes, because it is illegal, a point you've also stated.

Though the idea of the publishers gaining from piracy I refuse to discuss for one reason that actually has little to do with the situation; you cannot track this without an independent study. There is no way for a publisher to know how many sales are directly because of piracy, so any argument or debate about it cannot be based in facts. At least until the studies are done. The principal though, being similar to that of the principal of the demo, I do agree with. So I guess my stance is I agree with the idea but cannot agree with the statement as there is no large scale evidence. You can tell us what you've done, but that isn't enough for a reasonable discussion.

 

If you did it and are found guilty well serves you right for whatever your punishment is.

 

What if you already own a copy of the game? Is it still wrong to download a copy?

Legally you are allowed a backup copy of music and movies. I don't know if games would be included, but they might be. So, if you have a hard copy of a game, you are allowed to make a backup of the disc(s). With downloaded games you would have the right to burn a backup copy of the game (something Steam makes possible by the way, and they wouldn't do it if it were illegal). However, there would be no reason to download a copy illegally, since you already have a copy you can duplicate. If you were to download a copy that differs from what you legally own (let's say you own the base game but downloaded a GOTY version) the illegal download would not represent a backup, and thus it would still be illegal. Another example would be if the copy you download has been altered, such as having the key cracked in it, so it no longer asks to be activated when installed. This would not represent a backup.

Also, remember the law concerns backup copies. If you give it to someone else so they can play, it is no longer a backup copy.

 

But why go through all that when a simple download will fix things? Who am I hurting by downloading a game I already own?

Are you seriously arguing it would be more trouble to register a game than it would be to find an illegal copy? Or do you mean contacting customer support without having registered the title and trying to get another copy? That I could see there being some issues with, especially if the publisher does not have any means to deliver such a copy other than the mail.

Legally though, I don't believe anyone could successfully argue you have harmed anyone by downloading a copy of a game you own IF it is a proper representation of what you purchased, as I mention above. Still the point I tried to make earlier about the game company having to actually prosecute you comes into play. If it's close enough, they probably won't care, but if you've gotten additional content somehow, (the base game versus GOTY I mention earlier) then they may decide to do something, if they find out.

 

Edit:

Same here, for any game with a disc.

To make a copy of the disc is legal, so long as it is to act as a backup.

[Waco]

As I was attempting to point out later in the post, it doesn't matter if you think, or I think, there are legitimate reasons for downloading a game. The fact still is your act was illegal whether it leads to a sale or not.

I never said it wasn't.

 

 

Legally you are allowed a backup copy of music and movies.

Yes, but you aren't allowed to break the encryption on the disc/game/whatever...unless it's a DVD movie. So you're still breaking the law by backing up your discs if they aren't DVDs.

 

Are you seriously arguing it would be more trouble to register a game than it would be to find an illegal copy? Or do you mean contacting customer support without having registered the title and trying to get another copy?

No, just that it's far more of a trouble (and not to mention time consuming) to register the game (which you should do anyway), end up with a problem, contact support, wait for their response, work something out (if possible), then to wait again, assuming they can even do something.

 

IE: Many companies will not be updating their games to support 64 bit operating systems. Usually it's not the game that's the issue, but the old DRM they use for the installer. The only way around this is either a dramatically overcomplicated virtual machine setup or to just download it and not go through all the hassle.

 

Yes, it's still breaking the law. Jaywalking is also against the law. So is speeding even 1 MPH over the limit. My argument is not that it isn't illegal...but that it shouldn't be.

Edited December 16, 2011 by Waco

[Lord_Guy]

To make a copy of the disc is legal, so long as it is to act as a backup.

 

But I have downloaded some of my back-ups. That's the main thing here. If I get a letter in the mail asking me to pay $ to a company because I have downloaded a game, but, I already own that game then I'm still going to get the 3rd digree. So back to the 100% accuracy of piraters. I would not be a pirate and the company's 100% would be destroyed. Questions would be asked about wether people own the game and just want a back-up. All of the company's glouting would be spat in their face and most people wouldn't care what they had to say anymore. Trying to redirect the topic back to the main post and not keep it stuck in this infinite loop. Lol

[VaporX]

Yes, it's still breaking the law. Jaywalking is also against the law. So is speeding even 1 MPH over the limit. My argument is not that it isn't illegal...but that it shouldn't be.

 

So you are an advocate of F2P games then?

 

 

 

[Stonerboy779]

Do you guys have VideoEzy where you live? They allow you to rent games (and obviously Movies) here in Australia. I'm slightly surprised that you guys haven't come across this yet...

But not pc games only console games. No one wants to rent out pc games anymore. Video Ezy used to but it's been a long time since they have done that, with it being so easy to make disc images.

[Waco]

So you are an advocate of F2P games then?

F2P being completely free to play? I'm not against them, but I don't see what that has to do with anything. I just don't think downloading something that you already own should be illegal. Sure, it's stupidly hard to enforce, but that's not the point. I shouldn't be marked a criminal the instant I download something especially given that no company has shown that they are actually good at catching the actual person who did the downloading.

 

The biggest issue is the "guilty until proven innocent" thing that surrounds anything related to downloading. You have to prove your innocence as opposed to the companies being actually required to put forth binding evidence.

[Alexandre]

But not pc games only console games. No one wants to rent out pc games anymore. Video Ezy used to but it's been a long time since they have done that, with it being so easy to make disc images.

Huh, that's strange because I was at VideoEzy yesterday and they had a whole wall of PC games avaliable. Only in SA? Weird

[Deathmineral]

This should have already happened. I can't believe there is no PC game rental service. I would be all over that. I would want to be able to keep saves locally if I re-rent later though. I will have to do some reserch to see if there has been a thought or attempt at this when I have time.

I think there are already PC rentals, in a sense anyway. What I'm thinking of is the Free Weekends that Steam does, like the most recent one for Killing Floor or the one for Magicka, these give people access to the full game for certain period of time, which is how rentals work but the difference is money.

 

So really, not only are they already doing it but they're doing even better than the idea of renting. Problem is, this is pretty much only done by independent developers and with mutliplayer games. Most people are interested in the big titles though and aside from MW2 and Brink, I've never seen any big titles do the free weekend, honestly, I think it's something more companies should get into, I remember seeing probably five or so people on my friends list buy MW2 during that free weekend, it works.

 

Oh look, another generic Piracy debate

 

Have we come to an ultimatum yet? Or are we still tossing insults and generalisations, just like every other controversial topic?

It's definitely the second option, insults are fun, but heck we haven't even kept it to that level, we're even threatening to show up at each other's homes with guns. FUN!

[90sgamer]

What do you guys think of downloading so-called "Abandonware"? (Old DOS or early Windows games that have not been released as freeware but have been abandoned - i.e. no longer being sold by the developers/publishers.)

 

I love GOG.com but they don't sell every good old game. Some of my favorite old games that I don't have the disks for anymore you can find on these abandonware sites. Abandonware is not a real legal term, and it seems different sites have different criteria for what they consider "abandoned".

 

I have bought copies of old games off of Ebay as well, but some are too rare to find copies there and the developers get no money from those transactions.

 

Do you consider downloading abandonware unethical?

[Guest_Jim_*]

As I was attempting to point out later in the post, it doesn't matter if you think, or I think, there are legitimate reasons for downloading a game. The fact still is your act was illegal whether it leads to a sale or not.

I never said it wasn't.

No, you weren't, you were just trying to argue the morals. My point was more along the lines of law > morals. I know that isn't how anyone wants it, but that's how it is.

 

Yes, but you aren't allowed to break the encryption on the disc/game/whatever...unless it's a DVD movie. So you're still breaking the law by backing up your discs if they aren't DVDs.

The same law also allows you to break the encryption on Blu-Rays, so it is not limited to DVDs. The law existed before BD's, so my assumption is then that the law would protect you breaking the encryption on any disc, if it is to make a backup copy. Not sure if one could argue the encryption is illegal because it inhibits a person from performing a legal act, and thereby encourages them to download illegally. If the difficulty of making a copy is considered unreasonable by a judge though, they would likely rule in favor of the pirate then. Still, I've never encountered a PC game disc I could make a duplicate of. Of course I haven't encountered a PC game disc for years so.... I do however have some media I cannot make a copy of, but that's because of the encoding method, not encryption. (All Sony would have to do is release the codec, but it's Sony, so I might as well save up to buy the company to get it.)

 

No, just that it's far more of a trouble (and not to mention time consuming) to register the game (which you should do anyway), end up with a problem, contact support, wait for their response, work something out (if possible), then to wait again, assuming they can even do something.

Unless a judge were to rule the effort required is unreasonable, that's not a legal remedy. (Yes, I know, you're not claiming the actions are legal anyway.) If the judge felt it was reasonable though, then you're in trouble. Of course this whole debate would not occur if you do not attempt the legal method.

I am wondering if a EULA covers anything about that though. Not sure; never actually read one. (I'll bet there are games you can beat in less time than it would take to read the EULA.)

 

Yes, it's still breaking the law. Jaywalking is also against the law. So is speeding even 1 MPH over the limit. My argument is not that it isn't illegal...but that it shouldn't be.

That's really the crux of it all. Some of this stuff has a legal remedy and others don't, but all it takes is for the legal way to be too complicated and then the pirates are doing it because they hate the inconvenience. Only solution is for the publishers to make it less complicated, and thereby remove the pupose of the pirate. Unfortunately, this then gets back to the point however long ago; there is little independent evidence that simplifying things will actually lead to increased sales. Until that happens, the only reason a company would simplify things is PR, more or less. It is common sense that sales would increase anyway, but it still would need to be proven. Also, some of the publishers are worried about losing power over their rights. If it's all out there and they don't have a built-in means of defending it, then how can they protect it or themselves? They don't or can't realize the lack of a defense can actually be a protection.

 

 

But I have downloaded some of my back-ups. That's the main thing here. If I get a letter in the mail asking me to pay $ to a company because I have downloaded a game, but, I already own that game then I'm still going to get the 3rd digree. So back to the 100% accuracy of piraters. I would not be a pirate and the company's 100% would be destroyed. Questions would be asked about wether people own the game and just want a back-up. All of the company's glouting would be spat in their face and most people wouldn't care what they had to say anymore. Trying to redirect the topic back to the main post and not keep it stuck in this infinite loop. Lol

So long as the copy you downloaded is reasonably identical to the copy you bought, I don't believe the company could do a thing. Besides, we need to remember a company isn't going to want to go to court; they'll want a settlement because it looks better, costs less, and is often better for everyone. Lets say you bought a copy of the Witcher 2 (game from the article) and you later downloaded a pirated copy for a backup. Show the receipt or valid activation key (proof of purchase, more or less) to the company in response to the letter. No, you would not be a pirate because, from how the article described it, what you downloaded would be identical, except for the lack of DRM, to what you purchased. Of course, the backup thing might only be a US law, while what the company was doing was only in Germany. Letting it occur here though, a valid proof or purchase should be enough to deal with it, because the copies are the same. Could the company argue it is a different version and thus not a backup, because the DRM is removed? Yes they could. Would they? I very strongly doubt it because the effort would not be worth it, and the press would be murder.

 

The biggest issue is the "guilty until proven innocent" thing that surrounds anything related to downloading. You have to prove your innocence as opposed to the companies being actually required to put forth binding evidence.

Definitely a valid point. Although a company could not force you to provide any kind of compensation without proving your guilt, they could suspend or revoke services. Sort of the flip of the Origin forum/games ban thing (people banned on the forums also being banned from games) where you are banned on the forum for allegedly being a pirate. I don't mean you violated the terms of use for the forum, but that you are accused of pirating the game and then you cannot log into the forum, or some other service. Based on what I read in the SOPA and Protect IP bills, (no, they haven't passed; I'm just assuming similar language in current laws) the company would be allowed to do so. However, the company is not protected from legal suits if their evidence is not good enough, but that would require you actually take them to court. Of course, before that it would be easier to just directly contact the company about it. If email and live chat don't work, call and get a supervisor (and hope they speak english).

 

It's definitely the second option, insults are fun, but heck we haven't even kept it to that level, we're even threatening to show up at each other's homes with guns. FUN!

Imagine if we were talking politics or religion! At least then, I wouldn't have said anything because those are never fun on the Internet. At least now, for the most part, me and Waco agree: the system sucks.

 

What do you guys think of downloading so-called "Abandonware"? (Old DOS or early Windows games that have not been released as freeware but have been abandoned - i.e. no longer being sold by the developers/publishers.)

 

Abandonware is not a real legal term, and it seems different sites have different criteria for what they consider "abandoned".

 

Do you consider downloading abandonware unethical?

It isn't a legal term, but there is still a legal affect from it. So long as the company does not choose to prosecute you, you're fine, and that's basically what abandonware is; software the company no longer prosecutes pirates for. It's the, 'it's not cheating if you're not caught' idea where you're never caught.

Is it unethical though... I've been trying to keep my points away from ethics and just legal, but I would have to say if it is truly abandonware, no it isn't unethical. Essentially the rights holder has given up their rights to the content, so there is nothing unethical to it. It's like when someone loses something and you find it. If you do what you need to do to alert the rightful owner, and don't get a response, there comes a time (depending on the law) that you then become the legal owner. The software is the lost item and whoever downloads it is the finder.

 

Starting to wonder if I should go back to school to study copyright law

 

Edit: Any chance we can wind this down soon? I'm wearing out my keyboard.

[MJCRO]

oh my gawd, this thread is so long.