Waco Posted March 23, 2011 Posted March 23, 2011 Brain activity, like all physical matter, is governed by cause and affect and thus if someone does something against the law then that person shouldn't be held accountable for his/her actions because they couldn't really control what they were doing - they were just following their brain's natural cause and effect patterns. Just because the brain is a physical thing doesn't mean you have no choice in your actions. I liken it to a CPU running a program - except that the CPU itself writes the program based on some random combination of data that it has available to it. I hold myself and others responsible for their actions even if they aren't 100% in control of what those actions are (though I would say they are usually 99.999% in control of them). Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alexandre Posted March 24, 2011 Posted March 24, 2011 Just because the brain is a physical thing doesn't mean you have no choice in your actions. I appreciate your opinion mate but the question is why should I believe such a thing? Is my previous reasoning incorrect? I think you would agree with me that all physical things are governed by cause and effect (as well as probablity in quantum physics terms). This would suggest that physical things don't choose their actions, they just follow a set of complicated physical patterns which we have observed in our study of physics. How does choice arise from something that is, in essence, deterministic? Looking forward to your response Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
SpeedCrazy Posted March 24, 2011 Posted March 24, 2011 I am afraid this has gotten out of my depth. Still very interesting, but im just gonna read for a while. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Waco Posted March 24, 2011 Posted March 24, 2011 How does choice arise from something that is, in essence, deterministic? It may not be but it makes me feel better if I pretend I have a choice in what I do. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest_Jim_* Posted March 24, 2011 Posted March 24, 2011 This would suggest that physical things don't choose their actions, they just follow a set of complicated physical patterns which we have observed in our study of physics. How does choice arise from something that is, in essence, deterministic? Actually a few weeks ago (so I can't remember the exact reasoning why) in my quantum physics class the professor explained that while natural laws do mean that if we can perfectly observe the system we can predict what it future and past, there are still natural laws that prevent us from ever being able to perfectly observe a system. So yes, you could say everything is deterministic, but it is impossible to ever know what is determined or why. Besides, what's the difference between free will and the inability to know everything has been predetermined? If somewhere it says what you will do in exactly one minute, and neither you nor anyone else can ever access the information, what makes you think you are not in control? I could go into a really weird idea I had about how time works, but, to put it simply, I doubt many of you would understand. I in no way mean to offend any of you, it's just that I've got physics major friends that are in my quantum physics class that probably wouldn't be able to understand it. Personally, I do believe in free will and choice, but I also believe there's a lot more power to that then what most would think. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Waco Posted March 24, 2011 Posted March 24, 2011 If somewhere it says what you will do in exactly one minute, and neither you nor anyone else can ever access the information, what makes you think you are not in control? Well the illusion of control makes me happy even if it's not really there. I guess we could get into matter of fate if we wanted... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
SpeedCrazy Posted March 24, 2011 Posted March 24, 2011 Actually a few weeks ago (so I can't remember the exact reasoning why) in my quantum physics class the professor explained that while natural laws do mean that if we can perfectly observe the system we can predict what it future and past, there are still natural laws that prevent us from ever being able to perfectly observe a system. So yes, you could say everything is deterministic, but it is impossible to ever know what is determined or why. Besides, what's the difference between free will and the inability to know everything has been predetermined? If somewhere it says what you will do in exactly one minute, and neither you nor anyone else can ever access the information, what makes you think you are not in control? I could go into a really weird idea I had about how time works, but, to put it simply, I doubt many of you would understand. I in no way mean to offend any of you, it's just that I've got physics major friends that are in my quantum physics class that probably wouldn't be able to understand it. Personally, I do believe in free will and choice, but I also believe there's a lot more power to that then what most would think. I dont fully understand the idea but i do believe in free will with predestination. Let me explain, this comes from my religious standpoint so bear with me if you chose not to believe in God, i believe that God gave us free will but that he already knows what i am going to do every second of my life and i cant change that. AKA, he has a plan for me but it is already set in concrete though i have to chose it, free will predestination. Mind boggling but the only conclusion i have reached during my studies. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Waco Posted March 24, 2011 Posted March 24, 2011 AKA, he has a plan for me but it is already set in concrete though i have to chose it, free will predestination. If you have to choose it is it still a choice? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alexandre Posted March 24, 2011 Posted March 24, 2011 (edited) I dont fully understand the idea but i do believe in free will with predestination. Let me explain, this comes from my religious standpoint so bear with me if you chose not to believe in God, i believe that God gave us free will but that he already knows what i am going to do every second of my life and i cant change that. AKA, he has a plan for me but it is already set in concrete though i have to chose it, free will predestination. Mind boggling but the only conclusion i have reached during my studies. The question is not whether things are determined but rather by whom are they determined? If God knew what you are going to do, then it wouldn't make it determined by Him, it would just mean that he knows what choices you will make in the future. They are still your choices and the fact that God may know about them doesn't change the fact that they are still really determined by you. Maybe this analogy will make it a bit clearer: Let's say that after you watched the super bowl you travel into the past to a time before the game started. Now since you have watched the super bowl, you know who will win the game right? Does that knowledge make the team win that game? The answer is no. The team members win the game through their own effort and just because you know that they are going to win doesn't mean that you make them win. Actually a few weeks ago (so I can't remember the exact reasoning why) in my quantum physics class the professor explained that while natural laws do mean that if we can perfectly observe the system we can predict what it future and past, there are still natural laws that prevent us from ever being able to perfectly observe a system. So yes, you could say everything is deterministic, but it is impossible to ever know what is determined or why. Besides, what's the difference between free will and the inability to know everything has been predetermined? If somewhere it says what you will do in exactly one minute, and neither you nor anyone else can ever access the information, what makes you think you are not in control? I could go into a really weird idea I had about how time works, but, to put it simply, I doubt many of you would understand. I in no way mean to offend any of you, it's just that I've got physics major friends that are in my quantum physics class that probably wouldn't be able to understand it. Personally, I do believe in free will and choice, but I also believe there's a lot more power to that then what most would think. Are you referring to the Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle? Also don't be scared to tell about your time theory (maybe in another thread though) I, for one, would love to look over it. The point of all this is to draw your attention to the thought that a immaterial soul which has the ability to interfere with the cause and effect of the physical world and alter its outcomes is a reasonable solution to the problem of free will (and not an illusory one at that ) It also makes better sense of our understanding of responsibility, praise and punishment. What do you guys think? Edited March 24, 2011 by Alexandre Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest_Jim_* Posted March 24, 2011 Posted March 24, 2011 Let's say that after you watched the super bowl you travel into the past to a time before the game started. Now since you have watched the super bowl, you know who will win the game right? Does that knowledge make the team win that game? The answer is no. The team members win the game through their own effort and just because you know that they are going to win doesn't mean that you make them win. What kind of time travel are you using? Personal linear or convoluted threads? Okay, yes, I am making up those names, but they make sense for what I mean. Personal linear means that until you go back in time, any effect you have from being in the past has not occurred yet. If you go back in time and send yourself a letter, that letter was not in the earlier version of the time line until after you travel back in time to send it. so your time line can be seen as linear as you are constantly aging throughout it. Convoluted threads is where every thread of time has already wrapped back but that means the first time you experience an event everything that you will do as a time traveler has already occurred because your time traveling self is there now. You did get that letter even though you have no memory you sent it. (Bill and Ted's Excellent Adventure where they just remember to later put something somewhere and now it's there for them when they need it is a pop-culture example.) Are you referring to the Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle? That may have been part of it, and definitely is a common knowledge thing that can get the idea across. Have to go, may try to explain more later. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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