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Fragsman

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I'm guessing you guys are quoting from the Bible when you are talking about "made in His image". However I don't think that refers to the physical aspect at all. I think it is talking about how we can all think, feel, love, hate, understand, etc. It's not about us all looking the same, it is about us all having similar (soulish) characteristics that God has - hence we are "made in his image".

 

Now I think that souls do exist and let me cash out why:

 

How many people have access to your mind? How many people can actually know your thoughts, know your feelings or know what it is like to be you? Only one person - you. You are the only one with private access to your consciousness.

But physical things don't have this quality. They are open to anyone who observes them and that includes the brain, which is physical.

Yes scientists have been able to open up the skull and observe the physical activity in areas of the brain when you think certain things but they still can't see what you are thinking.

 

It is like going to the movies and being up in the room where the movie reel spins. You can see the light shining through the celluloid frames but can you conclude that is all that a movie really is?

Of course not. While the movie does require that light to shine through those frames, it is more than that. It is what is on the screen and beyond - the characters, the plot, etc, so much more than a projection of light.

 

In the same way, I think when scientists observe activity in the brain and conclude that that is all thinking really is, they are making the same mistake of saying the light through celluloid is all there really is to a movie.

Sure a flash of activity has strong correlation to our thinking but by observing it we still don't have access to the thought itself. Something has to interpret that flash of activity - something has to see the "movie" and I think the soul provides us a reasonable explanation.

Great analogy. Yes we were quoting from the bible, at least i was.

I never thought of that argument about if emotion was physical then why cant a scientist read it, have to use that in debate class. Do you mind if i plagiarize? :teehee:

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100% Brain functionality > CPU. But, there will still be the human error factor. So overall, I must say CPU > Human, since it doesn't suffer from errors. It will always calculate everything perfectly.

Edited by Krieg1337

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Great analogy. Yes we were quoting from the bible, at least i was.

I never thought of that argument about if emotion was physical then why cant a scientist read it, have to use that in debate class. Do you mind if i plagiarize? :teehee:

Lol not at all :cheers:

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We are getting closer to the brains capacity:

 

 

The memristors they are talking about in the end are quite close to the number of synapses in your brain.

They can build the internet in 40 liters (<2 cubic foot) (1 petabit per cm^3).

also memristors can make weird things, for example memory<=>compute performance... hard to imagine.

 

Videocards and eyes are not compareable though. Gaming experience vs real world maybe, but thats another question...

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I never thought of that argument about if emotion was physical then why cant a scientist read it, have to use that in debate class. Do you mind if i plagiarize? :teehee:

We can't read it yet. We can get a general idea now - we just can't pinpoint exactly what you're feeling through observation of the brain. That doesn't mean we won't be able to in the future.

 

Think of it more like a CPU - we can't read the state of a CPU merely by observing it with traditional means (and certainly not while it's running). However, with the proper tools, we can read certain portions of the CPU (even while it's running). Those tools just haven't been created to read the brain yet. :cheers:

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We can't read it yet. We can get a general idea now - we just can't pinpoint exactly what you're feeling through observation of the brain. That doesn't mean we won't be able to in the future.

 

Think of it more like a CPU - we can't read the state of a CPU merely by observing it with traditional means (and certainly not while it's running). However, with the proper tools, we can read certain portions of the CPU (even while it's running). Those tools just haven't been created to read the brain yet. :cheers:

Maybe, but i dont think it will happen. And if it did it could be used for mind control, reading is just one step away from writing/manipulating. So whether its possible or not i dont think it should be tried.

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Maybe, but i dont think it will happen. And if it did it could be used for mind control, reading is just one step away from writing/manipulating. So whether its possible or not i dont think it should be tried.

It will happen eventually. :shrug: When they figure out how to send data to the brain directly that will be AWESOME. :cheers:

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It will happen eventually. :shrug: When they figure out how to send data to the brain directly that will be SCARY. :cheers:

Fixed. I mean seriously, do you want technological telepathy, mid reading mind changing? I could end up in something like the Matrix.

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100% Brain functionality > CPU. But, there will still be the human error factor. So overall, I must say CPU > Human, since it doesn't suffer from errors. It will always calculate everything perfectly.

 

remember that nearly always happens with total compatibilty with no driver errors or issues which is as of now impossible...at least for normal pcs but brains are common

 

to people who dont want to be mind controlled wear a tin foil hat!

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We can't read it yet. We can get a general idea now - we just can't pinpoint exactly what you're feeling through observation of the brain. That doesn't mean we won't be able to in the future.

 

Think of it more like a CPU - we can't read the state of a CPU merely by observing it with traditional means (and certainly not while it's running). However, with the proper tools, we can read certain portions of the CPU (even while it's running). Those tools just haven't been created to read the brain yet. :cheers:

I can see what you are saying but the problem is not about pin-pointing what someone is feeling, thinking, etc because in a sense we can already do that. Scientists have been able to determine that when a certain area of the brain "lights up" with activity, we are thinking or feeling certain things, but, like i said, that is not the problem - the problem lies in pin-pointing the thought or feeling itself.

 

A physicalist understanding of the brain says is that any thought or feeling is in fact, just those electrical signals in the brain - nothing more. However, if that were true then we would see the feeling, word or thought right there in the brain. Why? Because we don't feel electrical signals, we feel feelings, we don't think electrical signals we think thoughts. This means that, the electrical signals must merely represent thoughts or feelings - things which I think are non-physical (what else can they be if they are not the electrical signals?). The electrical signal is not the thought itself but rather a representation of the thought and we are able to interpret this signal as a thought. How? Well, a reasonable suggestion would be: with our (similarly immaterial) mind/soul.

 

Another way of putting this is by asking whether you have ever tried to explain what the colour blue looks like to a blind man. I you ever do try, I think you will quickly realize that it is really impossible to do so without him being able to see it for himself.

Sure you can say what wavelength of electromagnetic radiation it is associated to and how electrical signals in your brain appear when you see it but those things aren't the colour itself are they?

 

Btw I am loving the discussion we are having here guys, really awesome to be able to talk about such controversial issues without flaming and/or verbal abuse :)

 

Looking forward to people's responses

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This means that, the electrical signals must merely represent thoughts or feelings - things which I think are non-physical (what else can they be if they are not the electrical signals?).

If we artificially send those same signals through your brain - are they still non-physical?

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This means that, the electrical signals must merely represent thoughts or feelings - things which I think are non-physical (what else can they be if they are not the electrical signals?).

If we artificially send those same signals through your brain - are they still non-physical?

One quick thing. The electrical signals only exist within the individual neurons, so unless thoughts are at such a discrete level, there is no relationship. The communication between neurons is carried out by neurotransmitters which are probably not so easily monitored at specific points. Also, I am unaware of anyone having given a theory of how to explain a thought with the transmitters. After all, the neurotransmitters are more semantic and hardly specialized enough to be able to distinguish 'there' from 'their.' Further, there is no regulation in the amount of a transmitter that is released from a single neuron. It either fires or it doesn't. Perhaps the number of neurons that fire is the regulation, but then how is one neuron selected to fire over another?

The brain is a very mysterious organ. Also, there are reasons to believe it utilizes quantum mechanical effects such as information being projected backwards in time. True it is quantum physics but do we still want to consider it completely physical when it is effected by something that hasn't happened?

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