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Andrewr05

2010 Firearms discussion

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Christ, where to begin...

 

I am "little girl" because I chose to arm myself with the same tools a criminal might use to perpetrate a crime against me, putting me at worst on even footing, at best with a severe advantage to his knife or whatever other weapon he felt like picking up before he infringed upon my rights? Perhaps you are a little girl for having what seems to be an irrational fear of an inanimate object that couldn't hurt you unless another PERSON decided to use it for such a reason. Guns are not the problem, people without proper training or respect for them is the problem.

 

You make a valid point about some people perhaps being unable to properly operate their firearms. It is a genuine concern. Realistically, though, most anyone who makes the commitment to obtain a firearms license and carry their weapon with them at every possible occasion probably also trains with it. Personally, I would never carry my weapon had I not devoted many hours and many thousands of rounds to practicing with it and knowing it inside and out. I could disassemble and reassemble it blindfolded no problem, I know it that intimately.

 

And no, I have never had to use my weapon in self-defense. If I am a lucky man I will be able to say this until the day that I die. However, that does not mean I am not willing to use it to protect myself or more importantly my family. Sorry, but if it comes down to shooting some thug who MAY or MAY NOT actually use that weapon he just pulled on me in, say, a robbery attempt, without knowing 100% that he's willing to use it... well, he'd have a few new holes in him and I wouldn't lose any sleep over it. I care more for my wife's safety than his. Sorry, that's life. You pull a gun or a knife on someone, you had better be willing and able to use it. It's not my responsibility (kinda fuzzy here, depends on your state and the exact circumstances) to judge whether or not this guy is just putting on a facade trying to scare me into giving him my money without ever intending to actually hurt anyone. He lost the benefit of the doubt when he pulled a weapon on me and my family. Simple as that. This goes back to your point about an officer shooting a kid with a toy gun. He likely intending to portray that gun as real. The officer should not be responsible for judging whether it's real or not. Hell, if he did that every time someone pulled a gun on him, he'd likely be dead pretty quick. Perhaps, just perhaps, the kid shouldn't be trying to portray a toy gun as real. I can think of no reason one would have to do such a thing unless they were attempting to use it to commit a crime or just HOPE that if they pulled it out in a defensive situation it'd scare off the attacked. Other than that, no dice.

 

Look, my friend, in a perfect world no one would even have the need to carry a firearm, or any weapon for that matter. But I would hope that you would have realized by now this is NOT a perfect world and there are PLENTY of people out there who would just as soon do you harm to take from you as look at you. It's a sad reality, but it is a reality. Your fears of responsible citizens running around with concealed weapons is misplaced. You SHOULD be worried about those running around with weapons with no regard for what the laws says about them, not those following the laws. God forbid one of these "little girls" hiding behind a gun should ever save your life if some crazy started shooting up the mall next time you were shopping.

 

No one ever said taking another human life, even if they were doing you wrong and threatened your life is an easy thing to do. I think anyone who holds that opinion either is a sociopath on some level, unable to empathize with their fellow man, or is a liar and a fool. An aversion to killing your own species is prevalent throughout the animal kingdom and even in most human beings. I'm not saying it wouldn't affect you, but again, I'm going to be honest, if it was between seeing some thug I don't know dead on the ground or my wife... well, that's not much of a choice. A firearm, if used within the parameters of the law, is a defensive last resort. I will defend my life, my family, and to an extent, my property from those that would take those things from me. Am I going to shoot someone for trying to steal my cheeseburger or my soda I just bought from the fast food restaurant? Uh, no. Will I pull my gun with the intent to use it if someone tries to break into my house or car jack me? Uh, yeah.

 

The problem here isn't law-abiding citizens arming themselves within the limitations of the law, it is all those people who choose to do so without any concern for the law. It is unfortunate that there are those within our "justice" system who would, if they had their way, lock up any citizen who even possess a firearm, even legally, but it's true. I do not know the circumstances surrounding what happened to you, but just because the "law enforcement" officers felt you were wrong in your actions does not make it so. I don't know what state you live in, but it sounds like a pretty tough one when it comes to gun laws. I cannot pretend to know what experiences life has brought your way, but to make such blanket statements on issues such as this and to portray those who choose to defend themselves with a firearm as "little girls" hiding behind them, well, that's just foolish and shows a lack of a cohesive and convincing argument as to why you feel your opinion is correct. It would be nice to settle everything with a simple fist fight where everyone walks away at the end, but me, I'm not willing to take the chance that some person irrational enough to make the decision to commit a violent crime will be rational enough to fight me on fair terms, without weapons. Truth is, criminals are cowards or else they would not take from others and hurt others for their own benefit. Just not a chance I'm willing to take with my life, or my wife's. More power to you, though.

 

Edit: BTW, I am genuinely sorry for what happened to your girlfriend, but I must say, if they put a beating on her like it seems they did, you were more than justified in your actions, so long as you gave them the chance to flee before opening fire. Do I believe you are necessarily wrong for firing if you did not? Well, if it was my wife like that, I'd likely have done the same thing. Again, just because the state says you were wrong doesn't make it so. In a sense it does, because it is wrong in the state's eyes, but I don't usually look at the government when it comes to deciding moral issues. Moral of the story, you got screwed, and I'm sorry you did. It is unfortunate that these things happen. I hope your girlfriend is all right.

Edited by Bizzlenitch

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^ i wasn't calling you a little girl, i was calling camaro94 for having the lack of common respect.

when you justify this with "soul searching" you leave the level of common sense and think your perfect enough to think of all outcomes, never having been in any himself

 

 

I guess my views are biased because of what has happened to me

& TY for the compassion on the subject.

 

I should of stated my personal experience, but it just kinda boiled out,

its still to this day a very touchy subject with me..

 

 

I lost all faith whatsoever in police, after this.. I just.. hate gun violence after this?

in pretty much all its forms

Edited by cirro

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I think you are more than justified in your disgust with gun crime. In fact, I share your disgust on a very real level. Also, I completely understand your lack of faith in the police, yet another reason why I chose to make sure I can defend myself in any given situation, NOT rely on the police. "Law enforcement" should be translated as "tax collector." Public protection is secondary to making sure enough tickets and citations have been issued to reach the monthly quota and make sure the country, city, state, whatever has enough revenue coming in from the police department.

 

Those who would leave their protection to the police and the state are fools. May sound harsh, but it is my opinion. Nice to have cops patrolling the streets to some extent, as I'm sure it is a real deterrent to crime on some level, but I would never feel safe knowing my only protection was my phone and ability to call 911. The thought almost makes me laugh.

 

Again, you've obviously been through a situation most people cannot even imagine, and I believe you are entitled to whatever opinion you have on the matter. Once more, my apologies for what you and your girlfriend have been through. It is a life-changing, opinion-shaping kind of event. No one without a similar experience should feel they can even really talk with the same authority on the same matter, and I will admit that my views and opinions are based solely on life as I've lived it and I have no idea what circumstances are like for you. Good luck, Godspeed and try to stay safe.

Edited by Bizzlenitch

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I just have bad luck, that "wrong place, wrong time" kind.

 

- I apologize to anyone here I have offended with my views on this, it wasn't my point to do so.

its just hard to stress a point when its tied so closely too your life.

 

I wont post in this thread anymore, everyone can go back and i wont flame .. i promise ^_^

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I've wanted an Anzio 20MM Rifle for awhile now ($9 a shell!)... for the sheer wow factor anyways. Isn't going to happen for awhile. I'll stick to my SKS for plinking... ammo's dirt cheap.

Edited by Sagittaria

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I've always wanted an Anzio 20MM Rifle for awhile now ($9 a shell!)... for the sheer wow factor anyways. Isn't going to happen for awhile. I'll stick to my SKS for plinking... ammo's dirt cheap.

 

I about lol'ed at that Anzio. Hunt lightly armored vehicles or other soft targets out to 5000m much? Heh. That thing is ridiculous.

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I just have bad luck, that "wrong place, wrong time" kind.

 

- I apologize to anyone here I have offended with my views on this, it wasn't my point to do so.

its just hard to stress a point when its tied so closely too your life.

 

I wont post in this thread anymore, everyone can go back and i wont flame .. i promise ^_^

 

A dissenting opinion is always welcome in any discussion. I don't think you were flaming, just speaking from an emotional place, and honestly, how could you not? No harm, no foul, my friend. You are certainly entitled to you opinion as I am mine. It's always good to have someone show you the other side of the coin and I think you have indeed made some valid points. There are real and serious safety and moral questions at issue in any discussion concerning the use of a firearm, especially when its use is directed at another individual.

 

Keep on keepin' on, OCC.

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I about lol'ed at that Anzio. Hunt lightly armored vehicles or other soft targets out to 5000m much? Heh. That thing is ridiculous.

 

I know right and they also make suppressors for the thing! The FBI is going to grab a couple to test... Neat concept though, suppose you could stop a runaway car or something from a distance just by shooting at the engine or something.

Edited by Sagittaria

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The police said i should of called 911 and left the scene with her.

I shot 2 people, called 911, and was arrested at the hospital.

 

My emotions led me to do something that i didn't have to, so when you say your defending your family.

Can you do what i Couldnt? Can you a big enough man to see someone you love laying on the ground bleeding?

There was nothing to prevent. Like life, it happened and I had to react.

I Know from a personal matter it doesn't help anything.

 

 

- BTW the only reason we didn't know she was getting set up is because the weapons they used were concealed.

If your not expecting it, its kinda hard to judge what will happen

 

Cirro, I empathize with your situation and the remorse and confusion that the event has brought you. No one can tell you if you were right or wrong in your actions but yourself, and yes, you will have to live with your decision and any consequences that decision has brought you. Everyone who decides to carry must at least have this run through their mind before walking out of the house for the first time carrying a deadly weapon.

 

I don't want to make light of your event and I hope I'm never in the same situation but with the few details you offered like "My emotions led me to do something that i didn't have to" kinda brings me to the conclusion that you shot two people that you really didn't have to. Once again I'm not trying to make light of your event, just going by what has been posted.

 

Yes, every year there are many cases of ordinary citizens maybe not using the best judgment when it comes to concealed carry and everyone of them has to deal with his/her own actions and the consequences of said actions. But there are just as many and more who have had positive experiences that have saved their or someone elses life by carrying. Many of the state laws are just so stupid it's not even funny, like, you must try to flee before taking any action, even if this means jumping out a second story window. You can not use deadly force unless you are cornered in a windowless room with no means of egress and your attacker means to kill you (I guess you are supposed to ask him first if he really intends to use that gun). There are many stories of people shooting attackers and being sentenced to jail and even being charged with manslaughter and murder for defending themselves. This is one of many outcomes that could occur with the decision to carry a concealed weapon, and each individual has to make this decision for him or her self as to the possible benefits vs risks of said decision.

 

Concealed carry is not for everyone, and I hole heartedly agree with those who state that CCW permits should require some form, if not a lot, of training first before allowing anyone to carry.

 

So, boys and girls, just think a little about what consequences your actions could have if you decide to carry concealed and do a LOT of training and practicing with your gun if you do decide to carry. Don't carry just because you think it would be cool.

 

 

 

 

Now, on a different note, I just ordered a G22, Gen4 w/Trijicon sites. I sold my G23 last year to pay some dentist bills and have really missed her so I figured it was time to get a replacement. I guess you know now what side of the gun debate fence I'm on.

 

@Bizzlenitch, your comment about bolt action doesn't really apply out west. I've come from Montana where 300-500 yards shots are not unheard of when hunting, and I don't know of anyone who uses anything but a bolt action for big game. Yes, the ranges out there have at least 300 yard targets if not farther to practice. Then again, take a ride 15 minutes in any direction and you can just stop and make your own range (a laser range finder really comes in handy for that). Oh, I miss Montana, here in Indiana it's all corn fields and you can't even use a high power rifle to hunt.

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@Bizzlenitch, your comment about bolt action doesn't really apply out west. I've come from Montana where 300-500 yards shots are not unheard of when hunting, and I don't know of anyone who uses anything but a bolt action for big game. Yes, the ranges out there have at least 300 yard targets if not farther to practice. Then again, take a ride 15 minutes in any direction and you can just stop and make your own range (a laser range finder really comes in handy for that). Oh, I miss Montana, here in Indiana it's all corn fields and you can't even use a high power rifle to hunt.

 

My comments were not meant to detract from the benefits a bolt action presents. I was mainly making my comment in jest. A bolt action rifle is obviously well-suited to tasks that would cause a more "modern" auto or semi-auto to falter.

 

I suppose if my comment had any point (despite my not making it clear whatsoever) it would be that in many situations a bolt action would prove an inadequate tool. Seeing as a majority of the planet's population now reside in tightly packed cities the benefits of the bolt action would prove diminished unless your need was extreme accuracy at long distances. And even then there are semi-auto rifles out their with near identical accuracy. As you pointed out certain locations and situations would indeed make good use of the bolt action's unique properties. I just believe, and this is of course my opinion, that a semi-auto or auto rifle would be a more useful tool in most situations a person might find themselves in. Obviously this would not apply if the primary use of the rifle was hunting game. But I do not hunt and have no need for the particular advantages a bolt action presents. That being said, I own a few bolt actions and they are fine weapons with very real uses, if somewhat limited. I stand (quasi)corrected. :ph34r:

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Just last week in the news some famous singer was cautioned by the police for showing a knife to 2 lads....... The lads were trying to rob her.Note: She was in her own house and they were trying to get into her house..... Trust me when i say this.YOU DONT WANT THE US LIKE THE UK its unreal.

The hooligans are loose the hooligans are loose :lol:

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@Bizzlenitch

Lets see, I've lived in NJ,CT,ME and NC and have hunted in all of the above east coast states I've lived in. I think the average deer hunting shot distance in any of the above is like 50 yards max, so yes on the east coast a 7mm Rem Mag really wouldn't be your gun of choice (mine has been sitting in a closet since I got to IN). I knew and have hunted with many people out east using semi and even lever action rifles with great success.

 

Almost all guns have there own nitches where they are more suited for a particular job than others, EXCEPT that 20mm joke posted. Unless you are in the military you have NO need for anything like that, even the 50 BMG has a competitive reason for owning one, can't think of anyone who would need a 20mm. I know i'll get the people who state you don't need a reason to own a gun, it's just to have fun shooting it, come on, they don't sell tanks just for the fun of driving one.

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