How Would YOU Fix The Economy?

[jammin]

1) Just because they become citizens, it doesn't mean they'll all start paying taxes. In many cases it's beneficial to them and their employers to simply get paid cash under the table. Hell a lot mom and pop businesses around here still pay a lot of their employees in cash - and these are all white, home-grown Americans.

 

That sounds less like a reason not to grant citizenship and more like a reason to look at why its apparently more beneficial for employees to be paid in that way?

Simply saying "they might not actually pay taxes" seems to be a pretty weak argument unless there is a fair amount of empirical proof that the majority actually wouldn't.

 

2) Studies conducted that measure the long run input of immigrants show that over the course of 16 years, on average, immigrants with a high school education and higher wind up either breaking even or having a positive effect on tax revenues, while immigrants with less than a high school education have a negative effect on tax revenues - meaning over the course of their working lives, they consume more tax dollars than they pay in. How many of the illegals coming from South America have a high school education or less? I don't know for sure, but I'm willing to bet a buffalo nickel the answer is quite a few.

 

Sounds like a valid point to me.

Obviously that applies to first generation immigrants? What would happen if you factored in the further generations? Once they become part of the education system, would it be more likely to provide benefits overall? (note those are questions rather than statements).

 

 

 

I'll come back to the point about welfare states at another time. I'm not quite sure how I want to respond to that at the moment.

Edited April 10, 2009 by jammin

[LoArmistead]

That sounds less like a reason not to grant citizenship and more like a reason to look at why its apparently more beneficial for employees to be paid in that way?

Simply saying "they might not actually pay taxes" seems to be a pretty weak argument unless there is a fair amount of empirical proof that the majority actually wouldn't.

 

That's exactly the point I was making. WHY is it more beneficial for them to pay under the table? The answer is obvious, but the solution to that problem is not going to happen in our current state, which means our only option between the two is to not allow them citizenship. The empirical data is derived from statistics of annual income amongst first generation immigrant families. Virtually all of them, aside from those holding professional degrees, fall into an income level that, under our new system, would put them at either paying no taxes into the system, or receiving more back than they paid in, thus making them a drain on an already-bankrupt system.

 

 

Sounds like a valid point to me.

Obviously that applies to first generation immigrants? What would happen if you factored in the further generations? Once they become part of the education system, would it be more likely to provide benefits overall? (note those are questions rather than statements).

 

In an ideal world, I think so. But the more the government tries to separate classes, the less likely they are to rise above their level. It's funny, they claim to redistribute wealth in order to move the classes closer together, but the effect of it is always the same in that is solidifies the upper and lower classes even more, basically turning glass ceilings into cement ones.

 

 

I'll come back to the point about welfare states at another time. I'm not quite sure how I want to respond to that at the moment.

 

Mmk.

 

If I'm not making it clear, I believe people who want to become citizens should be able to do so, but it will involve social reform, and a critical direction away from where we're going and towards a system that hasn't been shown by history to incite class warfare, freeze social classes in place, and grow the bottom feeders at a faster rate than the producers of the economy.

[Andrewr05]

How many of the illegals coming from South America have a high school education or less? I don't know for sure, but I'm willing to bet a buffalo nickel the answer is quite a few.

Just for clarification I don't think "Lo" is trying to belittle South Americans here, even if they do complete grade school (which is probably done with what they have available and with any means possible) I wouldn't think that their school credits would even apply here so essentially they aren't even considered grade school graduates let alone high school graduates.

 

Which is pretty ridiculous because I know North Americans who were literally swept through high school when they could barely read or spell and that is sad because I'm willing to bet that people from third world countries work their arses off to learn English and get a good education while they can...

 

[LoArmistead]

Just for clarification I don't think "Lo" is trying to belittle South Americans here, even if they do complete grade school (which is probably done with what they have available and with any means possible) I wouldn't think that their school credits would even apply here so essentially they aren't even considered grade school graduates let alone high school graduates.

 

Which is pretty ridiculous because I know North Americans who were literally swept through high school when they could barely read or spell and that is sad because I'm willing to bet that people from third world countries work their arses off to learn English and get a good education while they can...

 

 

Thanks for bringing that up. I definitely don't want it to look like I'm belittling anyone. I grew up in Texas, love the food, speak the language, and have more respect for the close-knit, hard-working Hispanic culture than many of the lifestyles here in the US. I was simply pointing out the obvious, that a majority of the ones who migrate here from South America are poorly educated and come here searching for work that involves manual labor rather than higher education.

[ExRoadie]

The part about the immigration that I don't get is: Why is a fast-track to citizenship not seen as a fast track to tax paying as well? I genuinely don't understand this. If they're willing to become citizens then shouldn't that please us? Then they're contributing just like everyone else, right?

Immigration is not the problem. Criminal behaviour by illegal aliens is the problem. Why are people so ready to forgive and forget the criminal behaviour by someone just because they want to be in the United States?

 

Becoming a citizen should be reserved for those that follow the immigration rules and enter the country legally.

 

Legal immigrants have been the backbone of our country since its inception. We have welcomed many people from many countries over the years. It's only been in the past few decades that we've had to limit immigration. Our immigration laws have very specific sections that restrict criminals from entering the country. Since this is the law why not hold them to that law and require that they enter the country legally?

 

It took my buddy almost three full years to get his wife entry from China after they were married. She thinks illegal aliens are criminals and should be refused citizenship.

[Kamikaze_Badger]

Heilig sheisse, I agree with Roadie.

[ExRoadie]

Not sure how we got from what I said onto that. Is it because I used the word change?

You posted about "change" and moving "forward" saying it would be a good thing.

 

Well, change for the sake of change isn't good unless we're moving in the right direction.

 

I'm not sure how many of you guys are fans of history but we've seen all this before.

 

The last two times we were in this position things didn't turn out so well for the citizen.