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Angry_Games

Those of you with "socialized medicine"...

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I'm picking up two main points of opposition to social healthcare.

 

1) People are a bunch of free loading, lazy, waste of space trying to leech off of your labour

 

2) You can't trust the powers that be to run it.

 

1) is tricky to solve but I think you'll be surprised how small a minority it is. Most people have some self respect and want to support themselves and their families and their communities. Most people want to do what's right. Imagine how the world would be if we didn't - imagine how few people there would be too.

 

2) is the responsibility of the populace in any democracy and doesn't only apply to a health plan. If you can't trust them with social healthcare what aspect of money and society can you trust them with.

 

Finally I don't think bringing up WWII helps (plus I'm pretty sure Russia made a massive contribution to winning the war and LOTS of countries lost LOTS of their service folk) but one of the results of us winning was the ability to have these kinds of open debate without fear of censorship or oppression from "those" that disagree.

I agree. Too many right-wing talking heads have convinced too many right-wing whatevers that americans are lazy and have no self respect.

 

That's just crazy talk from crazy people who somehow got their own radio/tv show.

 

There's always going to be the people who take advantage of the system (my fat, stupid lazy sister is one of them). But there are always going to be MORE people who don't take advantage of it in a negative way, that take advantage of it in a positive way (ie: use it to be healthy and become productive citizens).

 

Those who think we are just too stupid, too lazy, too criminal...I feel sorry for you. You've lost the spark of Americanism that makes this country great, and you are now part of the problem of why we are not great.

 

This country was founded on hard-working principles and we still have those ethics and principles. According to right wing nutjobs however, we don't. But this is why we don't listen to right wing talking heads...because they are out of touch with reality (by a longshot) and will spin anything to sound like they know what they are talking about. (ahem...the war in Iraq anyone? right-wingers STILL think we can win, and they still think it's a good idea, while 70% of America does not...so who is out of touch here?)

 

Once again, social medicine is NOT social welfare. I wish everyone would stop spouting that talking-head bull crap because all it does is muddle the facts, and the fact is, medicine is NOT a government check to buy dope with or have more kids with.

 

It's not. If you say it is, you are just bleating-repeating what idiots on tv/radio/newspapers say. IT'S NOT WELFARE. IT'S HEALTHCARE FOR OUR CITIZENS TO BE HEALTHY AND NOT HAVE IT AS A WORRY.

 

No amount of links to right-wing conservative 'fact' group sites nor opinion pieces at the NY Times or lobby groups can change the facts. The facts are medicine is medicine, NOT WELFARE. The sooner everyone stops listening to the right-wing lies about this, the sooner we can begin to overhaul the system and provide healthcare to people like wevvspots's employees who damn sure deserve it. While we are at it, maybe we could even give proper healthcare to returning soldiers from Iraq/Afghanistan instead of denying their claims as much as possible like regular insurance companies do to regular citizens.

 

 

 

Now as for #2 that we can't trust the government to run it properly...well, Seud says, if we can't trust the government with healthcare, what can we trust them with? Nothing. So let's devolve into anarchy and be done with it, every man for himself (oh what a wonderful fantasy right-wing world that would be!).

 

I don't need to read ExRoadie's opinion links (they aren't facts for the most part, all I see are opinions with some scattered facts in there). I need to see the citizens of this country pull together and decide enough is enough, we MUST stop letting the drug and insurance companies tell us what kind of medical care we are going to get. At least if the government is running the show, we can expect corruption and delays, but we'll get the best care we can as the government isn't out to gouge citizens for profit (they already do that with a thing called the IRS).

 

Gov't agencies might be inefficient and a bit corrupt, but they are run by us, the people, and it's our responsibility to kick them xxxxers out of office that don't do right by the country.

 

I'm tired of people trying to take it back off track away from the fact that we all deserve healthcare whether we can afford it or not. That's our responsibility as citizens of one of the greatest countries on earth. Other countries are doing it, and they are doing it extremely well. There are no facts from anywhere to suggest otherwise, only american right-wing opinion and talking heads telling those who will listen what a nightmare the system is.

 

Yet not a single talking head (nor bleater-repeater) will talk about how the evil system has catapulted all those countries ahead of ours, with their citizens being less obese, more healthy, lower infant mortality rates, longer life expectancies than americans.

 

WOW!!! HOLY .!!! THAT SOCIALIZED MEDICINE IS EVIL!! IT's MAKING THEM LIVE LONGER AND HEALTHIER!!!! WE BETTER GO xxxxING BOMB ENGLAND AND EUROPE INTO THE STONE AGE SO WE CAN BE HEALTHIER!!!

 

Jesus.

 

Ok let's talk about economies, since these places that have this medicine are paying through the nose in taxes.

 

WOW!!! OMG!!! EU ECONOMIES ARE HEALTHIER THAN AMERICAN ECONOMIES!!! OMG WE BETTER BOMB THEM BACK TO THE xxxxING STONE AGE SO WE ARE THE TOP ECONOMY AGAIN EXCEPT FOR CHINA!!!!

 

 

See, right wing nutjobs talk talk talk but they fail to talk about the fact that these socialized medicine countries are stronger, healthier in all ways than we are. Oh, well, except we have nukes I guess and most of them socialized bastards don't. Is that how we measure strength now?

 

No, we measure strength by the health of not only our economy, but our citizens. The right wingers have done such a fantastic job of polarizing this country over differing opinions that we are in a deadlock and will never get anything done until the citizens of this country wake the hell up and take control back.

 

I'm tired of hearing how your money is more important than your fellow man.

 

Because that's all I'm really hearing when I hear right-wingers spew opinions-shaped-as-facts about socialized medicine.

 

your money is more important than your fellow man.

 

It always comes back to that.

 

Why?

 

Why must we be so selfish?

 

Isn't man's evolution tied to evolving beyond the brutish, selfish nature that we've had to millions of years? How can man aspire to be anything better than we are now if we continue to preach "SELF SELF SELF" to everyone, including our children?

 

No one with an ounce of pride likes a handout.

 

Even more hate having sand kicked in their face though.

 

No, no amount of opinfacts from right-wing sources will ever convince me that SELF SELF SELF is more important than helping everyone.

 

You might help someone today.

 

What happens tomorrow when YOU need help?

 

It doesn't matter...your money is more important than anything in your life (much more than your fellow man)

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ps: momma was just asking me...How does one 'abuse' socialized medicine???

 

Does one just go get sick every 19 minutes? Do you feign illness every single day so you can go suck down doctor money that might go to someone else?

 

HOW exactly is someone supposed to abuse medical care? I've never understood that. Sure you can abuse the whole "I'm not going to work

today" thing, but how can you possibly abuse getting free medical care to become healthy????

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Thats pretty true, most people that can afford to go private would rather go private and if your on welfare you really don't have a choice. Im sure more wasted time and money goes to those people that think they have everything but are as healthy as a butchers dog. Or people like my wife when my son put a hard drive screw up his nose and I had him lying on the table with a pair of tweezers in my hand and I almost had it and she freaked right out and we ended up paying a doctor 300 bucks for somthing I was gonna do for free. I felt like an idiot in the waiting room with people that needed to be there.

I paid for it myself but I feel like I wasted the docs time, maybe thats just as bad?

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I almost made a rash post too about the post war loan we just managed to pay off but after a cup of tea and bite to eat I remembered that we actually got it on fantastic terms and is was quite generous of you yanks. I also did a little seaching and found that there were a lot of these "loans" kicking around in tose days of war - what a skewed history countries like to teach their kids.

 

As to the Anti-Christ - who knows? Hitler was a nut job and did rather well for himself until he lost the plot. Plus there's the whole Mayan calendar thing just in case you didn't get enough of the millenium apocalypse (folks got a bit 'weird' in 1900 too apparently).

 

As Branjo said you're not a bad man Wev I read your reply here http://www.diy-street.com/forum/showthread.php?t=80801 you obviously put effort into that. Certainly more than I would have.

 

Now back to the main topic, and if you want to remain the main anti-social health care that's fine. As has been said its not necessary for the government to run the scheme but it would certinaly need the legislation to support it. To be honest a scheme free of political shenanigans might be the best way to go. To be really honest though they wouldn't relinquish such a political tool that's so good for beating and praising your friends and foes.

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2 points related to other points in the thread. And this is coming from someone (me) that has been branded much like Ex, somewhere between conservative, libertarian, and ...... survivalist? Who knows. And of course, this is my PERSONAL opinion and in no way reflects upon my employer.

 

First, the Russians did a helluva job in WW2. Their contribution should not be overlooked. I have trained in snow and sub freezing temps and it ain't fun. Then what did they do immediately afterwards? They embarked on a 50 year experiment on socialism that utterly and completely failed, wasted a literally uncountable amount of money (ours and theirs) and got a lot of people killed! No single aspect of their socialist government worked properly except for mebbe the KGB. They were pretty effective.

 

Second, I refuse to participate in a socialist endeavor until someone can prove to me that EVERYONE that is capable of participating will try as hard as I do. I know where I came from and I got a good idea where I am going. I am not dragging a bunch of ungrateful loafers along with me who are unwilling to work or contribute an honest effort to the best of their abilities. Other than my paycheck and the Eisenhower Interstate System, no government has ever given me anything. I don't want anything handed to me from the government even though I HAVE earned it.

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I've been thinking about this subject. I just can't see the US goverment doing socialized health care with any better luck then most of the other things our government runs/controls/oversees. Can you point out anything that our government runs or controls that has been successful? It seems that the more they control the less effective they are and the more we as citizen have to pay

out to keep it going. Our government seems to have a pretty crappy record of running programs they control.

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Just for fun i thought i'd throw in a few statistics for you. Some of you probably know this stuff anyway. But if it's here it saves you all having to look the web.

 

Uk population 2006 was 60.6 million(last available figures)

Uk NHS budget 2007-2008 £105.6 billion

 

USA population 2007 is 303 million

 

Now a quick bit of maths, assuming that a USA version of the NHS was set up along the same lines, would cost the USA $1056 billion per year.

 

Now, as a UK citizen, i think what we pay is worth what we get. But weather as US citizens you think $1056 billion per year is worth it, only you can decide. :)

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Now a quick bit of maths, assuming that a USA version of the NHS was set up along the same lines, would cost the USA $1056 billion per year.

 

Now, as a UK citizen, i think what we pay is worth what we get. But weather as US citizens you think $1056 billion per year is worth it, only you can decide. :)

WOW! That is a scarily big number :eek:

 

Kccustom, this thread and the suggestion to watch Sicko was the brainchild of AG himself. Straight from the top.

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Just cut the unnecessary waste of the US Government and that 1 Trillion might be a bit more realistic;

 

1. The Missing $25 Billion

 

Buried in the Department of the Treasury’s 2003 Financial Report of the United States Government is a short section titled “Unreconciled Transactions Affecting the Change in Net Position,” which explains that these unreconciled transactions totaled $24.5 billion in 2003.

 

2. Unused Flight Tickets Totaling $100 Million

 

A recent audit revealed that between 1997 and 2003, the Defense Department purchased and then left unused approximately 270,000 commercial airline tickets at a total cost of $100 million. Even worse, the Pentagon never bothered to get a refund for these fully refundable tickets. The GAO blamed a system that relied on department personnel to notify the travel office when purchased tickets went unused.

 

3.Embezzled Funds at the Department of Agriculture

 

A recent audit revealed that employees of the Department of Agriculture (USDA) diverted millions of dollars to personal purchases through their government-issued credit cards. Sampling 300 employees’ purchases over six months, investigators estimated that 15 percent abused their government credit cards at a cost of $5.8 million. Taxpayer-funded purchases included Ozzy Osbourne concert tickets, tattoos, lingerie, bartender school tuition, car payments, and cash advances.

 

4. Credit Card Abuse at the Department of Defense

 

The Defense Department has uncovered its own credit card scandal. Over one recent 18-month period, Air Force and Navy personnel used governxment-funded credit cards to charge at least $102,400 for admission to entertainment events, $48,250 for gambling, $69,300 for cruises, and $73,950 for exotic dance clubs and prostitutes.

 

5. Medicare Overspending

 

Medicare wastes more money than any other federal program, yet its strong public support leaves lawmakers hesitant to address program effixciencies, which cost taxpayers and Medicare recipients billions of dollars annually.

 

For example, Medicare pays as much as eight times what other federal agencies pay for the same drugs and medical supplies.[6] The Department of Health and Human Services (HHS) recently compared the prices paid by Medicare and the Department of Veterans Affairs (VA) health care program for 16 types of medical equipment and supplies, which account for one-quarter of Medicare’s equipment and supplies purchases. The evidence showed that Medicare paid an average of more than double what the VA paid for the same items. The largest difference was for saline solution, with Medicare paying $8.26 per liter compared to the $1.02 paid by the VA.

 

6. Funding Fictitious Colleges and Students

 

In 2002, the Department of Education received an application to certify the student loan participation of the Y’Hica Institute in London, England. After approving the certification, the department received and approved student loan applications from three Y’Hica students and disbursed $55,000.

 

This much carelessness helps to explain why federal student loan programs routinely receive poor management reviews from government auditors. At last count, $21.8 billion worth of student loans are in default, and too many cases of fraud are left undetected.[13] Tracking students across federal programs, verifying loan application data with IRS income data, and implementing controls to prevent the disbursement of loans to fraudulent applicants could save taxpayers billions of dollars.

 

7. Manipulating Data to Encourage Spending

 

The Army Corps of Engineers spends $5 billion annually constructing dams and other water projects. Yet, in a massive conflict of interest, it is also charged with evaluating the science and economics of each proposed water project. The Corps’ “strategic vision” calls on managers to increase their budgets as rapidly as possible, which requires approving as many proposed projects as possible.[14] Consequently, the Corps has repeatedly been accused of deliberately manipulating its economic studies to justify unworthy projects.

 

8. State Abuse of Medicaid Funding Formulas

 

Significant waste, fraud, and abuse pervade Medicaid, which provides health services to 44 million low-income Americans. While states run their own Medicaid programs, the federal government reimburses an average of 57 percent of each state’s costs.

 

The GAO and the HHS Inspector General have also uncovered some states’ practice of recovering improper payments, retaining the funds, and then spending them on unrelated programs—a practice that costs the federal government well over $2 bilxlion per year. Congress could enact legislation to prohibit these actions more effectively.

 

9. Earned Income Tax Credit Overpayment's

 

The earned income tax credit (EITC) provides $31 billion in refundable tax credits to 19 million low-income families. The IRS estimates that $8.5 billion to $9.9 billion of this amount—nearly one-third—is wasted in overpayment's.

 

10. Redundancy Piled on Redundancy

 

Government’s layering of new programs on top of old ones inherently creates duplication. Having several agencies perform similar duties is wasteful and confuses program beneficiaries who must navigate each program’s distinct rules and requirements.

 

Consolidating duplicative programs will save money and improve government service. In addition to those programs that should be eliminated completely, Congress should consolidate the following sets of programs:

 

#

342 economic development programs;

#

130 programs serving the disabled;

#

130 programs serving at-risk youth;

#

90 early childhood development programs;

#

75 programs funding international education, cultural, and training exchange activities;

#

72 federal programs dedicated to assuring safe water;

#

50 homeless assistance programs;

#

45 federal agencies conducting federal criminal investigations;

#

40 separate employment and training programs;

#

28 rural development programs;

#

27 teen pregnancy programs;

#

26 small, extraneous K–12 school grant programs;

#

23 agencies providing aid to the former Soviet republics;

#

19 programs fighting substance abuse;

#

17 rural water and waste-water programs in eight agencies;

#

17 trade agencies monitoring 400 international trade agreements;

#

12 food safety agencies;

#

11 principal statistics agencies; and

#

4 overlapping land management agencies.

 

Linkie

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I guess those 10 points you made ReelFiles sort of goes to my thinking about the governments way of handling things. It's a scary thought, trusting the US government with something as important as health care for the people of the US. and I guess anyone else who is in the country.

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Ok, well here I go with another rant.

 

National Health Care would work great in our country. Because all of the illegal immigrants would find a way to take advantage of it.

 

Its not much different than "English as a second language". At least in our part of the country we spend hundreds of thousands of dollars teaching English to Mexican children just so they can keep up in their core courses.

 

And speaking of the great EIC program . . . .

 

My sister-in-law (who has kids from four different men) qualifies for the EIC credit every year. Even though she rarely earns more than $9800 each year. But she gets a nice healty check from the government every February that averages about $1700 dollars. More than six times what she pays in for Federal Income Taxes. How jacked is that?

 

Yep, I'd leave health care to the government, they do so well with the $17000 I contribute every year.

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