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When I got my Expert back from RMA the Chipset is chipped!

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There is a risk with refurb'd boards due to not knowing where its been, so to speak. But in this case, the issue is not infection. The issue is electrostatic discharge (ESD). The board is shipped in ESD packaging, so one must assume that with all components soldered in place, there is still some hazard. And the hazard is that ESD can not only damage ICs in ways that are obvious in testing, but in ways that are subtle and only manifest themselves in particular circumstances. ESD can also initiate degradation that gets worse over time. That is why my employer, among many others, demands maximum proper anti-ESD practice in all laboratories and manufacturing areas.

 

So, never-takes-direction junior wippersnapper buys a board and igores the ESD warnings because he doesn't understand why he should follow them, and zaps his board while assembling his computer. He sends the board in for repair and gets a refubished one. Meanwhile, his damaged board is repaired until it checks out and is shipped to the next person needing replacement. What is unclear here is the risk that the refurbished board is less than fully functional, or will become so in the future. I would like to hear from an engineer at Diamond Flower Electric Instruments, Inc. why this is not a problem.

 

kirby

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Well, I'm not an EE but I did sleep at a Holiday Inn Express last night. LOL

 

There's simply no way to guarantee anything including your handling of your own board that might go in for repair or replacement.

 

By your logic DFI would have to destroy every board that was returned for R/R.

 

Would you pay the increased price required by your standards?

 

What is unclear here is the risk that the refurbished board is less than fully functional, or will become so in the future. I would like to hear from an engineer at Diamond Flower Electric Instruments, Inc. why this is not a problem.

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I don't know about you guys but if I bought a brand new board and it was broken I'd expect to recieve a brand new one in return, not a second hand refurbished one... Never had a problem with that so far though when it comes to motherboards. The only refurbished things I've gotten back so far was a replacement drive for a dead IBM (yes, the deathstar).

 

However, I've never had to send in a board to the manufacturer, I've just returned it to the retailer and get a new one back. Whatever they do with the faulty equipment I don't know.. They probably just return them to their distributors. I don't care though, as long as I don't have to RMA it myself.

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Well, I'm not an EE but I did sleep at a Holiday Inn Express last night.

 

LMAO, that made my day, thank you.

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I suggest, ExRoadie, that you not embrace such a narrow logic, nor guess about mine in particular. By my logic, there are several alternatives, four of which follow.

 

a) DFI repair and return the board to its original owner, taking proper ESD precautions. This is the ESD-fair approach, but would likely delay board returns. But the customer should be given the chance to decide.

 

B) DFI establish a testing regime for refurbished boards that can determine ESD damage, assuming that the types of ESD damage that could occur in their specific design would result in predictable and testable behavior. This may not be possible, which was my point.

 

c) DFI guarentee refurbished boards for at least as many years as they would claim for their Japanese capacitors' MTBF. Else why bother with the caps, just do like Abit and buy caps that slowly degrade. You do end up with bigger capacitor cases than you bought, afterall.

 

d) DFI reset the standard warrenty to time = 0 when a refurbished board is provided to a customer. Sometime in the future there might be a cost to the customer of labor trying to figure out weird behavior before he gives up and RMAs his board again, but hey, he's only the customer.

 

My further point is that if DFI are following an RMA process that has at least the appearance of a deficiency, they should be able to say why there is no deficiency, or that such failures are as statistically rare as early new board failures, or otherwise defend their practice. Would you be satisfied with this method if it were applied to your car you brought in for service?

 

Please note that I am not rantng against DFI here. I think that they have a superior product. They support this forum and appear to have much better than average service. However, the defense posed earlier that "everyone does it" is a very weak defense. I would prefer a technical one.

 

kirby

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I think you should just take your proposal to DFI and not bother posting it in this thread or forum.

 

Any more thread crapping will be deleted.

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but my problem/concern is that if something DOES go wrong with it in the future, I don't want DFI to say that I chipped my chipset and now I void my warranty. So I at least want them to be aware that it was like that when they sent it.

 

I am now well aware of the issue. If you have problems in the future with your board that warrants an RMA, simply PM me first and remind me with a link to this thread and I will honor your RMA without any hassles if the chipset being chipped comes up at the RMA department. I have the ability to override the RMA's that get refused if necessary and in this case, it would be necessary, and it would be honorable since you did post immediately after receiving the board that the chipset was chipped.

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Whatever they do with the faulty equipment I don't know..

 

we thoroughly test them to see if there is any true damage. 95% or more of the boards returned to us have absolutely zero problems, it is the user that cannot get the board to work properly and instantly assumes it is the board, not himself.

 

Those boards that actually are damaged are thoroughly tested and repaired if possible.

 

We do not send out boards as RMA replacements that have not been thoroughly tested. Sometimes one slips through, but 99.99999% of the time a board that is given back to an RMA customer is working 100% properly.

 

I should know, I have received back countless RMA replacement motherboards from DFI to test and they work 100%, they overclock 100%, and they are 100% reliable as well as any board that has been purchased brand new.

 

If you choose to not accept this truth then there's nothing I can say to convince you and I won't waste any more breath trying.

 

The truth is the truth and if you fail to understand that it is the truth then DFI motherboards...no wait...any motherboard is not for you because EVERY company that makes motherboards has the same replacement for RMA practice as we do.

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I suggest, ExRoadie, that you not embrace such a narrow logic, nor guess about mine in particular. By my logic, there are several alternatives, four of which follow.

 

a) DFI repair and return the board to its original owner, taking proper ESD precautions. This is the ESD-fair approach, but would likely delay board returns. But the customer should be given the chance to decide.

 

B) DFI establish a testing regime for refurbished boards that can determine ESD damage, assuming that the types of ESD damage that could occur in their specific design would result in predictable and testable behavior. This may not be possible, which was my point.

 

c) DFI guarentee refurbished boards for at least as many years as they would claim for their Japanese capacitors' MTBF. Else why bother with the caps, just do like Abit and buy caps that slowly degrade. You do end up with bigger capacitor cases than you bought, afterall.

 

d) DFI reset the standard warrenty to time = 0 when a refurbished board is provided to a customer. Sometime in the future there might be a cost to the customer of labor trying to figure out weird behavior before he gives up and RMAs his board again, but hey, he's only the customer.

 

kirby

let me answer this for you

 

if you choose to not take these answers at face value, then I suggest you find something else to occupy your time here because I have no time to argue endlessly with people about this.

 

A. if the board has no problems, it is returned to the customer. This is the case 95% or more of the time.

 

If the motherboard is damaged, it is repaired and sent back if it can be repaired in a timely manner (ie: easy fix like resoldering a capacitor or resistor that was knocked off)

 

If the board is damaged to the point it isn't feasible or efficient to repair it and return it, a replacement board is tested and then shipped to the customer.

 

(ps: you need to get off your kick about ESD...the RMA department is militant about it more than you could ever possibly envision...any ESD damage is not going to come from our end)

 

 

B. This is not possible. You obviously don't know as much about ESD as our engineers do. See my bold notation right above this sentence.

 

C. This is impossible. We cannot guarantee a motherboard like this unless the entire motherboard was made of nonthing but "japanese capacitors"

 

It isn't. A motherboard is a highly complex piece of hardware that has to integrate all of the components of a computer system and allow them to communicate and function as a single unit.

 

I don't know that I really need to explain this any more than I just have...If I do, then it means you have no concept of what a motherboard really is.

 

D. Not going to happen. Your warranty is from the day you purchased the board.

 

If we allowed you to get an RMA 2 years down the road and reset your RMA from that time, then you would have ANOTHER 3 years of warranty...meaning your warranty was now all of the sudden 5 years long. Then in 2 more years you might have another RMA and BLAMMO you get another 3 years of warranty making your total warranty time 7 years?

 

Are you crazy or just have no idea how business really works?

 

How could DFI stay in business under your proposed business model?

 

Yeah...it wouldn't.

 

 

 

 

1. My further point is that if DFI are following an RMA process that has at least the appearance of a deficiency, they should be able to say why there is no deficiency, or that such failures are as statistically rare as early new board failures, or otherwise defend their practice. Would you be satisfied with this method if it were applied to your car you brought in for service?

 

2.Please note that I am not rantng against DFI here. I think that they have a superior product. They support this forum and appear to have much better than average service. However, the defense posed earlier that "everyone does it" is a very weak defense. I would prefer a technical one.

 

1. We don't have to defend our practice to anyone. We are a company that has been in business 20+ years and we are quite efficient at manufacturing and repairing our products.

 

2. "Everyone does it" because that is how it is done. Period. It's called "a business model" and it keeps all of these businesses including ours....in business.

 

If you don't like it, don't buy it from us. Buy it from Asus, Abit, MSI, etc.

 

But they have the same business model as we do. We are not going to change our business model and lose money just to satisfy you.

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the next person that posts in this thread better be talking to the original poster about his problem, or to me about the original poster's problem.

 

I nor the mods will tolerate anymore useless crap in this thread, nor throughout the forum.

 

Don't say you weren't warned.

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let me answer this for you

 

if you choose to not take these answers at face value, then I suggest you find something else to occupy your time here because I have no time to argue endlessly with people about this.

 

A. if the board has no problems, it is returned to the customer. This is the case 95% or more of the time.

 

If the motherboard is damaged, it is repaired and sent back if it can be repaired in a timely manner (ie: easy fix like resoldering a capacitor or resistor that was knocked off)

 

If the board is damaged to the point it isn't feasible or efficient to repair it and return it, a replacement board is tested and then shipped to the customer.

 

(ps: you need to get off your kick about ESD...the RMA department is militant about it more than you could ever possibly envision...any ESD damage is not going to come from our end)

 

 

B. This is not possible. You obviously don't know as much about ESD as our engineers do. See my bold notation right above this sentence.

 

C. This is impossible. We cannot guarantee a motherboard like this unless the entire motherboard was made of nonthing but "japanese capacitors"

 

It isn't. A motherboard is a highly complex piece of hardware that has to integrate all of the components of a computer system and allow them to communicate and function as a single unit.

 

I don't know that I really need to explain this any more than I just have...If I do, then it means you have no concept of what a motherboard really is.

 

D. Not going to happen. Your warranty is from the day you purchased the board.

 

If we allowed you to get an RMA 2 years down the road and reset your RMA from that time, then you would have ANOTHER 3 years of warranty...meaning your warranty was now all of the sudden 5 years long. Then in 2 more years you might have another RMA and BLAMMO you get another 3 years of warranty making your total warranty time 7 years?

 

Are you crazy or just have no idea how business really works?

 

How could DFI stay in business under your proposed business model?

 

Yeah...it wouldn't.

 

 

 

 

 

 

1. We don't have to defend our practice to anyone. We are a company that has been in business 20+ years and we are quite efficient at manufacturing and repairing our products.

 

2. "Everyone does it" because that is how it is done. Period. It's called "a business model" and it keeps all of these businesses including ours....in business.

 

If you don't like it, don't buy it from us. Buy it from Asus, Abit, MSI, etc.

 

But they have the same business model as we do. We are not going to change our business model and lose money just to satisfy you.

 

 

May I copy and paste this at the "Other Forum" ??? Great Explination H_G....

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