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scottR

NF4 Expert will not cold boot- psu issue?

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Hey Guys,

 

First off I want to say I think DFI is an awesome company and I love how they cater to the end user. It has been a wonderful experience. I too have the cold boot issue with an OCZ 520W and am a little bit dissapointed with how the issue has been handled by DFI, way too much finger pointing has gone on and it took way too long for DFI to even admit there was a cold boot problem. To me it looks like both the motherboard AND powersupply companies are to blame and it'd be great if they'd get together and resolve this issue. Obviously there is a specification somewhere that isn't being adhered to and hopefully there is a fix.

 

I'm not overly upset with DFI because the problem exists, it would have been hard for them to forsee this issue. What does dissapoint me is that DFI really needs to update the reccomended power supply list (if they haven't already as I haven't looked at it lately) and point out the power supplies that some users have had problems with. I'm sure many users out there are in my situation and don't have a lot of money. When I was picking out my components I didn't realize that this motherboard had such a high powersupply requirement, and that the 450W Antec I had barely missed the cut. While I'm sure it would have been fine I was planning on overclocking and eventually adding RAID5 so I wanted to be sure and have enough power. I saved up and bit the bullet and afte rmuch research through the forums I picked the OCZ520 from the power supply Alist. Only to find out that I had more problems than with my solid little 450. All I know is that now that this issue does exist DFI needs to own up to it and at least inform the users so that they can hopefully avoid it.

 

Anyway, sorry this has rambled on so long but just one more quick thing. As I can't afford another new power supply right now, nor do I really want the hassle of sending in the motherboard for a possible fix to a problem DFI says they don't have and that I haven't even heard much about. Despite this the cold boot problem isn't really effecting me right now as I'm doing the "Quick Tap" method I mentioned in a previous post. I turn my computer off every night, and when I start it up the next day just a really fast tap to the power switch fires it up every time. I'm not sure it will work for everyone but its at least worth the attempt as it has saved my sanity. I just hope this method isn't damaging anything I don't know about :)

 

Thanks,

Mid

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Hey Guys,

 

First off I want to say I think DFI is an awesome company and I love how they cater to the end user. It has been a wonderful experience. I too have the cold boot issue with an OCZ 520W and am a little bit dissapointed with how the issue has been handled by DFI, way too much finger pointing has gone on and it took way too long for DFI to even admit there was a cold boot problem. To me it looks like both the motherboard AND powersupply companies are to blame and it'd be great if they'd get together and resolve this issue. Obviously there is a specification somewhere that isn't being adhered to and hopefully there is a fix.

 

I'm not overly upset with DFI because the problem exists, it would have been hard for them to forsee this issue. What does dissapoint me is that DFI really needs to update the reccomended power supply list (if they haven't already as I haven't looked at it lately) and point out the power supplies that some users have had problems with. I'm sure many users out there are in my situation and don't have a lot of money. When I was picking out my components I didn't realize that this motherboard had such a high powersupply requirement, and that the 450W Antec I had barely missed the cut. While I'm sure it would have been fine I was planning on overclocking and eventually adding RAID5 so I wanted to be sure and have enough power. I saved up and bit the bullet and afte rmuch research through the forums I picked the OCZ520 from the power supply Alist. Only to find out that I had more problems than with my solid little 450. All I know is that now that this issue does exist DFI needs to own up to it and at least inform the users so that they can hopefully avoid it.

 

Anyway, sorry this has rambled on so long but just one more quick thing. As I can't afford another new power supply right now, nor do I really want the hassle of sending in the motherboard for a possible fix to a problem DFI says they don't have and that I haven't even heard much about. Despite this the cold boot problem isn't really effecting me right now as I'm doing the "Quick Tap" method I mentioned in a previous post. I turn my computer off every night, and when I start it up the next day just a really fast tap to the power switch fires it up every time. I'm not sure it will work for everyone but its at least worth the attempt as it has saved my sanity. I just hope this method isn't damaging anything I don't know about :)

 

Thanks,

Mid

 

Same over here. Well I just got my rma back from OCZ. Its the 600wsli psu. Keeping my fingers crossed.. BTW those folks over at OCZ are freaking awesome man. My hats off to EVERYBODY over at the place.. Keep up the awesome work :)

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Guest Retratserif

The quick tap didnt work for the Enermax NoiseTaker II 600watt. I tried everything. I am just going to get the suggested OCZ once I get my refund money back. Yeah it sucks staring at a rig that has the so much ability, and will not boot for some unknown reason.

 

I dont know who is the blame, more than likely no one, but the issue is still here and there is no quick fix. With lots of money, time, PSU's and even more cussing I am sure I will get it booted.

 

I have everything but PSU's and money. I have spent plenty of time cussing though. :nod:

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I have the cold boot problem (but only when overclocked to 2.8) with two different pc power and cooling 510 asl's and two different expert boards. I know some of the moderators are very insistant that this is not a problem with the MB's but it will be experienced that way by most users.

 

Putting a .22uf cap across the power on switch solves the problem for me.:

 

http://www.dfi-street.com/forum/showthread...0414#post470414

 

There is no reason to do this mod directly to the board and there is REALLY no reason to do this mod to the power supply. It is a little irresponsible to suggest putting the cap on the power supply just to make it seem like the problem is with the PSU and not the MB.

 

It doesn't really make a difference who is at fault here anyway (MB or PSU manufacturer). Most people probably just want the problem solved (or not to have the problem at all). Hopefully, putting the capacitor on the switch will help some of you guys too.

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For Clarity:

 

Adding the 0.22uF capacitor across the start circuit has nothing to do with the motherboard.

 

It only affects the way the PSU senses the voltage drop across the start circuit. The PSU provides a constant voltage to the start circuit. When you press the front panel switch, the motherboard switch or short the front panel connector on the motherboard with a paper clip, this causes the voltage to drop which the PSU senses.

 

If the voltage does not stay "low" for the proper length of time, the PSU will "false start" then shut down leading to the symptoms as described.

 

This fix is used on any PSU that exhibits "switch bounce" with many different power supplies.

 

You can mount the capacitor anywhere in the circuit. At the front panel switch, across the motherboard front panel connectors, at the ATX connector or inside the PSU.

 

Once again, "switch bounce" is a problem related to the PSU. Adding the capacitor smooths the voltage spikes and allows the PSU to sense a normal start.

 

This fix has been around for many years predating the Expert board.

I have the cold boot problem (but only when overclocked to 2.8) with two different pc power and cooling 510 asl's and two different expert boards. I know some of the moderators are very insistant that this is not a problem with the MB's but it will be experienced that way by most users.

 

Putting a .22uf cap across the power on switch solves the problem for me.:

 

http://www.dfi-street.com/forum/showthread...0414#post470414

 

There is no reason to do this mod directly to the board and there is REALLY no reason to do this mod to the power supply. It is a little irresponsible to suggest putting the cap on the power supply just to make it seem like the problem is with the PSU and not the MB.

 

It doesn't really make a difference who is at fault here anyway (MB or PSU manufacturer). Most people probably just want the problem solved (or not to have the problem at all). Hopefully, putting the capacitor on the switch will help some of you guys too.

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You really seem obsessed with blaming this on anything other than the MB. It is so bad that you end up writing nonsensical stuff like this:

 

This fix is used on any PSU that exhibits "switch bounce" with many different power supplies.

 

I am sure that it is not a single component but interactions between them that cause them to behave this way. To take the position, though, that the cold boots have nothing to do with the motherboard is just bizarre.

 

I am happy with both of my experts and, in general, with the information provided on this board. I just think that the way that you are approaching this problem damages your credibility. Even though I have basically solved this problem to my satisfaction, I was very bothered reading this thread. For example:

 

You can try another PSU of the same type or a different PSU.

 

I mean: What would your suggestion be for me? Someone who has already purchased two $250 PSUs and has the same problem with both PSUs on both Expert boards that I own? Its just bizarre. I mean, I like DFI but I don't think I'll be drinking the Kool Aid just yet.

 

Also... I'd just like to add that while I do have the cold boot problem with both expert boards, I did not have it when I had an A8N-SLI in its place, keeping all of the other hardware in the rig constant. Really, I don't know what better controlled experiment you could do to see which piece of hardware is causing the problem. That being said, I still like the DFI board better.

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i got to agree with him...just take a look at the length of this thread...and theres prolly alot of users that dont consider it an issue and just say their system is flawless, like me. and the rest *ahem, probably are testing boards minimally outside the case..attach all the hardware and see what happens...thats when it happened to me. it can damage to reboot too quickly from a powerdown so i look at it as a safeguard....but if the cap fix actually works they need to sticky it...i'll find out tomorrow i happen to have a few caps layin around in the old rc car toolbox, and if its true then i'll post it..

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You really seem obsessed with blaming this on anything other than the MB. It is so bad that you end up writing nonsensical stuff like this:
This fix is used on any PSU that exhibits "switch bounce" with many different power supplies.

I am sure that it is not a single component but interactions between them that cause them to behave this way. To take the position, though, that the cold boots have nothing to do with the motherboard is just bizarre.

frenchie,

 

You might want to do yourself a favor and learn something about a subject before you challenge someone's credibility. It might help you keep yours.

 

You're taking a very strong position using language like that.

 

I've been building rigs for almost 20 years and know my way around just about every issue that appears in laptop, desktop and server rigs. I've been there and done that.

 

Damping switch bounce with a cap is the easiest way to resolve the issue without replacing the PSU. About six years ago, IBM sent out kits as a field repair for three popular desktop models with a cap on an inline jumper to resolve switch bounce. Dell has resolved the issue with a replacement PSU that included the cap inside.

 

When you see this issue across every manufacturer of motherboards it surely isn't the fault of one board or even series of boards.

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Damping switch bounce with a cap is the easiest way to resolve the issue without replacing the PSU.

 

Damping the switch bounce is, in fact, much easier than replacing the PSU because it costs about $2 and, at least in my experience, replacing the PSU probably won't solve your problem.

 

You might want to do yourself a favor and learn something about a subject before you challenge someone's credibility. It might help you keep yours.

 

I have a degree in Electrical Engineering. So, I'm not completely uninformed on the subject.

 

I come from a background where rigorous application of scientific method is valued above andecdotal evidence. It makes no difference to me if other board manufacturers have the same problems. (Do a google search for "A8N-SLI Cold Boot" and you will mostly find threads about people who switched to ASUS because of the DFI cold boot issue). This really does not even address my comments anyway. It also makes no difference to me if some boards work with some power supplies but not with others. The only systems I can control enough to experiment with are my own and those are my results...

 

It is clearly not solely an issue with the PSUs (You seem to agree with this in the first post in the thread and then seem to argue against it elsewhere). If it was, then the current draw of the MB wouldn't be a factor effecting cold boot issues. I only have cold boot problems with two SLI cards drawing power AND with the CPU overclocked. I would expect the A8N-sli to exhibit the same issues with all other variables fixed if it were a PSU problem.

 

I'm sorry to say it, but it does hurt your credibility that you insist the MB has nothing to do with it but you are unable to provide an EVIDENCE (stories about IBM or Dell having cold boot problems too do not count) to support your claim. Its not a personal thing. You seem like you are really trying to help people and I appreciate that. I just think you have gone off the deep end on this one. I can't even begin to understand why you would suggest modding a PSU as a possible fix to this problem. I am just trying to help people too. Like I said, I have resolved the problem to my TOTAL satisfaction. I didn't even have to do any soldering to my switch because of the way I have it configured in the case.

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@frenchie,

 

I've pasted the contents of my revision to the very first post in this thread regarding "switch bounce". Please use the quote button and use bold text where I blame the motherboard in the "switch bounce" section of my post.

 

From original post...

------

Part Two...

 

It has been determined that there are issues with certain power supplies failing at startup that relate to "switch bounce". When a PSU starts a sequence of events must happen in a timed progression.

 

Normally, the PSU senses a voltage on the start circuit. When you push the start button on your case or motherboard, the voltage is drawn down to 0.0V. This condition must last for at least 250ms

 

"Switch bounce" occurs when the PSU has trouble latching into the PS_ON# state as dictated by the ATX 12V 2.X specification. The internal circuitry should allow for a certain amount of oscillation in the "start circuit". If this isn't accounted for, the PSU will attempt to start then shutdown.

 

It has been determined that the addition of a 0.22uF capacitor across the start circuit can smooth out the oscillation and allow the PSU to start properly.

 

The capacitor can be added anywhere on the start circuit from the case front panel all the way to the inside of the PSU.

------

I'm not perfect and have been wrong before. But honestly, I'm growing weary of this issue you have with my advice and conclusions.

 

It worked for you...

http://www.dfi-street.com/forum/showpost.p...14&postcount=36

 

But maybe you should just take your own advice that you posted here...

http://www.dfi-street.com/forum/showpost.p...7&postcount=301

"It doesn't really make a difference who is at fault here anyway (MB or PSU manufacturer). "

 

Get the hardware from different vendors lined up and do the the research and testing for yourself. When you're done post the results in this thread for public consumption as I have done and we'll compare notes.

 

If I'm wrong about any of the conclusions I've made I'll post the correction right here.

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I've pasted the contents of my revision to the very first post in this thread regarding "switch bounce". Please use the quote button and use bold text where I blame the motherboard in the "switch bounce" section of my post.

I don't think the switch bounce is the only factor causing the cold boot problem. Like I've said many times, I have the cold boot problem only when overclocked with two video cards. Also, reseting the 5vsb by power cycling the PSU allows the machine to cold boot without any "switch bounce". It seems to be an interaction between switch bounce and high current draw (out of spec with ATX standard recommendations by the way) on the 5v standby rail.

 

I really think we are talking about different combinations of the same problem... not two distinct problems as you have summarized them.

 

But maybe you should just take your own advice that you posted here...

http://www.dfi-street.com/forum/sho...7&postcount=301

"It doesn't really make a difference who is at fault here anyway (MB or PSU manufacturer). "

I just want to post my observations for other people's benefit. If you really agree with me that it doesn't make a difference who is at fault, stop blaming the PSU manufacturers. Its as simple as that.

 

Get the hardware from different vendors lined up and do the the research and testing for yourself. When you're done post the results in this thread for public consumption as I have done and we'll compare notes.

Any chance we can see your experiment (just results and method including EVERY component in each system tested)?

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