Why I love and Hate You DFI

[maverik-sg1]

For me this issue has been brewing for a long time - there are issues with this board and they are being identified.

 

I love and hate DFI:

 

I love the fact that they advertise as an overclockers board.

I love that I have become one of the best in the world at benching using DFI equipment (www.futuremark.com/community/halloffame maverik-sg1)

 

I hate the fact that you have to RMA direct to them and they find (sometimes create) any reason why a board has failed other than component failure - and the cost of returning the product from the is so high it becomes a waste of money to even try and get a replacemetn board under warranty.

 

I hate the fact that after so many failures of one board no official reason has been given - a product re-call issued - or even just a statement saying people can get a free replacement of the revised unit simply by returning the unit to their local retailor - instead its become a PR nightmare with many people posting there unhappiness on any available forum at the time.

 

I hate the fact that although it is advertised as an overclockers board and the worlds best use the board using some extreme cooling (Liquid Nitrogen and Dry Ice or cascade phase change) and set world records using their boards as a base - when it all goes wrong the first thing DFI say/do is distance themselves from the fact that the board should not 'really' be overclocked.

 

It should be understood by DFI that people pay a premium for their board because it allows them to do so much with it, people set records using it and DFI get recognised for that - It is only fair that DFI should accept that phase cooling will be used more on one of their boards than any other board on the market and that people invest heavily in their product because it's an overclockers board.

 

There are far more superior stock motherboards to use out there right now: A8N-32SLI, Quad Royal, Fatality SLI, ECS SLI, Jetway SLI - but those that choose4 and pay for DFI expect it to be ropbust enough to withstand hardcore overclocking and be stable enough (or safe enough) not to blow up any other equipment in the process (unless groos user error takes place).

 

So please put a stop to all the misguidance - accept the issues - present a workable solution and get rid of this stupid RMA system that you have right now.

 

Two good examples of good PR exercise:

 

Apple Ipod Nano - identified certain screens were faulty or getting scratched - soluiton take it back to your local retailor and get a replacement.

 

Xbox 360 - certain units are overheating - solution take it back to your local retailor and get a replacement.

 

DFI - Probelm with EXPERT BOARDS - solution ???? - result very unhappy loyal DFI customers (all shouting comeback Gigabyte all is forgiven)

[Angry_Games]

I hate the fact that you have to RMA direct to them and they find (sometimes create) any reason why a board has failed other than component failure - and the cost of returning the product from the is so high it becomes a waste of money to even try and get a replacemetn board under warranty.

 

#1 this is no different than any other company. When you buy from Newegg, you got 30 days to return to them. After that, its direct with the mfg unless you get extended warranty FROM NEWEGG.

 

so buy an Asus board, hitachi hdd, sony dvd player, etc, and after 30 days, you have to deal with the mfg. DFI is no different.

 

#2 we don't just 'find reasons'. When boards arrive in RMA, they are tested on two different setups. If they work, they are shipped back out because there is nothing wrong with them.

 

If we tell you it is not the board but likely something else, that is from our combined experience. It is NOT just because we don't want to help you or replace your board.

 

 

I hate the fact that after so many failures of one board no official reason has been given - a product re-call issued - or even just a statement saying people can get a free replacement of the revised unit simply by returning the unit to their local retailor - instead its become a PR nightmare with many people posting there unhappiness on any available forum at the time.

 

#1 you perceive massive failure differently than we or others who know the industry do.

 

you read a couple of posts on a forum about how this or that happened, and see a few that never even owned the board or did and THOUGHT they had the same problem and all of the sudden its an epidemic in your mind and the product should be recalled...when in reality that just isn't the situation. Most of those that rode the 'recall train' fixed their problem...and never bothered to report back to some forum (we know...we've helped them). The rest had their problem fixed with a replacement, bios update, change of hardware, etc.

 

#2 this is a support forum. This is a place that was designed to let users come and get help if they have a problem. Nowhere here does it state, nor was it designed for, to be a place where people bought our product and showed up to say how great it was.

 

That just isn't reality. When you buy a car, and you like it, do you show up at the dealership with big bright lettered signs saying how great you like your car? No, you quietly tell others that are your friends that its a good car.

 

But say you have a problem with your car...well then you are right on the dealer's doorstep complaining about your something-or-other is broken, not working, etc.

 

People don't have reason to FIND a support forum for a product that is not giving them a problem. No problem means no reason to find a place to report a problem...

 

I hate the fact that although it is advertised as an overclockers board and the worlds best use the board using some extreme cooling (Liquid Nitrogen and Dry Ice or cascade phase change) and set world records using their boards as a base - when it all goes wrong the first thing DFI say/do is distance themselves from the fact that the board should not 'really' be overclocked.

 

incorrect

 

we distance ourselves from the beginning. Nowhere in any of our literature, websites, statements, etc, say we guarantee any overclock. We build what users want, but we have to have good policies like not warrantying an overclock because we would go broke.

 

Say you bought a board from Asus and they guaranteed/warrantied overclocking...and you could only get 275x10 out of it

 

and that made you unhappy...

 

so you RMA'd the board and the next one only gave you 279

 

and that made you unhappy...you think you should have 300 like others with phase change $12,000 liquid/subzero coolers and hand-picked-from-15-kits-of-RAM, cpu's, etc.

 

so you keep returning the board until you get one that gives you teh overclock YOU think you should get...

 

a company would go out of business in a day if they guaranteed overclocking in general like that

 

 

The upside is that this company at least hired some techs that KNOW about overclocking, and HELP users achieve those overclocks. 99% of all other companies do not have such persons working in an official capacity for them.

 

So you honestly should consider yourself lucky to buy a product from a company that won't officially support your overclocking jonez, but does hire overclockers to do tech support for them to try and help you along when you do run into an overclocking snag.

 

 

It should be understood by DFI that people pay a premium for their board because it allows them to do so much with it, people set records using it and DFI get recognised for that - It is only fair that DFI should accept that phase cooling will be used more on one of their boards than any other board on the market and that people invest heavily in their product because it's an overclockers board.

 

last time we checked, less than 2% of users were using subzero/phase change.

 

20% were using watercooling

 

the rest were still using aircooling.

 

majority here at this forum still use air cooling...so i would say that it IS understood by DFI what the customers are using...

 

 

There are far more superior stock motherboards to use out there right now: A8N-32SLI, Quad Royal, Fatality SLI, ECS SLI, Jetway SLI - but those that choose4 and pay for DFI expect it to be ropbust enough to withstand hardcore overclocking and be stable enough (or safe enough) not to blow up any other equipment in the process (unless groos user error takes place).

 

stable is stable...there's no board that is more stable or less stable....it is either stable or it isn't...there's no in between.

 

that being said, I am always the first to advise a customer that if they are not willing to accept the steep learning curve that our boards have when it comes to setting them up, they most definitely should buy an Asus, Abit, Giga, MSI, etc. Ask anyone here, both Rgone and I are well known (I'm sure much to our superior's chagrin) to suggest a non-DFI motherboard to someone who is not ready for the features and complexity that ours offer.

 

If you want a vanilla board that maybe overclocks, get an MSI, Asus, etc. They work, and they don't have much complexity in their options, and allow for a bit of overclock.

 

If you want a board that overclocks like no others in the world (and no other boards overclock like ours, and we've seen, tested, talked with owners that have these other boards that claimed they did...and they don't compare at all after pitting them against the DFI Lanparty boards), then you want a DFI Lanparty.

 

It's pretty simple...you either want a stock board with a little overclock ability up to decent overclock ability...or you want the raging monster overclocking conundrum DFI board.

 

It is your choice, and we, nor anyone else, forces you to make a decision. Decisions are up to the individual, not us.

 

We just build boards with the features that customers want.

 

 

 

So please put a stop to all the misguidance - accept the issues - present a workable solution and get rid of this stupid RMA system that you have right now.

 

Two good examples of good PR exercise:

 

Apple Ipod Nano - identified certain screens were faulty or getting scratched - soluiton take it back to your local retailor and get a replacement.

 

Xbox 360 - certain units are overheating - solution take it back to your local retailor and get a replacement.

 

DFI - Probelm with EXPERT BOARDS - solution ???? - result very unhappy loyal DFI customers (all shouting comeback Gigabyte all is forgiven)

 

well, everyone is certainly entitled to their own opinion. Until you work for us however, you really don't have any idea of what the real numbers are. You are a customer on the outside thinking they see the big picture and they know all about how everything works. But you don't. We see the sales #'s, and we see the RMA #'s, and we see the real defect rate #'s...and if there was a big problem...it would be addressed.

 

The problems that can be addressed are addressed with bios updates and technical fixes.

 

if there were a problem so large as to require a recall, then you'd see it.

 

but you don't, and there's a reason for that.

 

as I said, you are on the outside looking in, thinking you see everything. But more than likely you are an unhappy customer that has had issues with your board and then read some forums where others have had issues (which again, is the point of such forums...no one shows up just to say 'ok well i bought it and it works so see ya later').

 

If you have a problem with your board, please return it and we'll replace it, repair it, or test it and see that there are no problems with it.

 

If there is a specific problem you have with it that someone else has and has teh same problem, with the same hardware, then that can be corrected by a BIOS update and you should send such requests to [email protected] as they are the ones who do the updating for BIOSes.

 

as for your blanket statement of all unhappy NF4 Expert users...I'd say read around a little bit here and you'll see plenty of happy users...more than unhappy...and those that are unhappy...most of those are happy with the board, just unhappy that they haven't been able to get 358x10 or some ungodly overclock out of their board yet.

 

And yes, I do read these forums. I own them, and read all of the threads...so I would say out of anyone at DFI, I have a better overall picture of this than you, or anyone else.

 

But again, if you have a problem with your board, please return it and have it replaced, repaired, or tested.

[maverik-sg1]

I did lose a SLI EXPERT motherboard though.My system specs pre-EXPERT were:

 

X2 4800 12x261 1.65v

BH5 261 2-2-2-5 3.65v

DFI-NF4-SLI-DR 623-2

2x 7800GTX voltmodded

850w PCP&C cooling

2x 75GB Raptors Striped

2x 200GB Storage Drives

2x92mm Fan Ram cooling

Lian Li PC70 Case

ASUS 16x DVD R/RW

AKAS Fan Controller

Mach2GT R507

EXOS2 Cooled GPU's

 

I am no stranger to DFI baords as such - but treat everyone as a new learning experience and never ever try and use what I had learned before - even in a simple revison update such as this.

 

Specs were as above but Expert installed with release BIOS - unit powered down never started back up - which was a shame coz it was the first DFI board I had managed to get 300Mhz HTT from. The board I have now also shuts down randomly with one of two messages appearing:

 

PFN LIST CORRUPT

IRQ NOT LESS THAN OR EQUAL TO

 

I have changed hard disks - formatted re-installed RAID and non-RAID options - using 12/07 BIOS now knwoing that DFI will use that as a reason why not to accept my RMA - which really upsets me as it's essential to use this BIOS fix to stop ur CPU blowing.

 

I have one of the best PSU's money can buy - but I am sat in the BIOS watching the CPU volts fluctuate 0.02v every other second - I see glitches in the BIOS screen (even thou I flashed the BIOS three TIMES).

 

Finally occasionally (one in ten restarts) I lose SLI and/or screen defaults to 640x480 and 8bit colour - yes I have re-installed drivers, OS, Re-Format do it all again.

 

What I would really like is for DFI to say to me - hey mav, if you got a problem with that board we know what it is and we've fixed it in the new batch, gimme ur address details and we'll ship one out to ya, dont worry about sending that one back, it's scrap - or let us arrange collection fopr you coz we know it costs a fortune from the UK to ourt nearest office.

 

Case closed - loyal user happy - DFI looking forward to seeiing more of my cash in future.

 

Feel free to pass this on as is appropriate.

 

Ultmately I buy DFI as it has more chance of going faster than anyone elses, what I dont want this to do is:

 

a) blow up my CPU like what we have seen recently.

B) be unstable and do random things (switch off sli - BSOD for no reason)

 

I'd be interested in seeing those numbers (ref: rma's versus numbers sold) also for someone to tell me why I have a trace 'repair' in my SPDIF area.

 

I believe the rev is A02, has this been superceded by rev AA0?

 

I'd like to send it back but my fear is that DFI will reject it, becuase:

 

a) I am using a BETA BIOS

B) Becuase it's intermittent they can't repeat the failure

c) Some other reason I can't think of right now

 

If there is a magic fix to all this I am all ears - maybe you guys have a good relationship with a supplier in the UK who you could appoint as your warranty center or offer a collect and return service?

 

I want to be a happy DFI man again - all I need is the right advice or help and we're back on track

[Angry_Games]

using 12/07 BIOS now knwoing that DFI will use that as a reason why not to accept my RMA - which really upsets me as it's essential to use this BIOS fix to stop ur CPU blowing.

 

who told you that you couldn't have your BIOS reflashed/replaced?

 

and im pretty sure the beta section you downloaded this from stated clearly BETA - USE AT YOUR OWN RISK

 

that tells me that if im not ready to accept the risk, I better not try it...

 

I have one of the best PSU's money can buy - but I am sat in the BIOS watching the CPU volts fluctuate 0.02v every other second - I see glitches in the BIOS screen (even thou I flashed the BIOS three TIMES).

 

relying on bios or software is never good...always use a meter that is built for measure true fluctuation. Just because you have a the best psu in the world doesn't mean it won't flux slightly...and you also don't consider that the power has to be spread out on a motherboard to so many different areas that it is bound to flux once in a while....

 

and even more... 0.02v flux is WELL within spec...WELL WITHIN it...

 

What I would really like is for DFI to say to me - hey mav, if you got a proiblem with that board we know what it is and we've fixed it in the new batch, gimme ur address details and we'll ship one out to ya, dont worry about sending that one back, it's scrap.

 

honestly...thats just being unrealistic, and I think you know this too, you are just frustrated (its ok, we all get frustrated)

 

there's a good chunk of money in that board you have...there's no way we can just ship you out a board with that chunk of money invested in components like NF4 chipsets, LAN chips, audio chips, etc...and let you keep the original one.

 

we have to know if it is bad. You might be an expert in hardware...you might not...the guys in our dept's ARE experts and can diagnose a true fault in a particular board...I honestly don't think you (and not even me) are up to that skill level and I can guarantee you that if you or I say realized that the Marvell network controller chip was what was causing the entire problem, neither of us has the skill, knowledge, nor equipment to desolder that one particular piece off the board and replace it with a good working one.

 

I think you should be a little more realistic on how a business works.

 

 

 

now, again, if you have a problem, you are more than welcome to send us your board.

 

better yet, I'll offer what I haven't for a while because I got so backed up...and you can send the board directly to me personally and I will test it for you. I will even pay shipping both ways to have the board tested by me, that I how sure I am that either the board is simply bad and needs replacing, the bios is corrupt and needs replacing, or there's nothing wrong with the board, it is a problem in the hardware you are connecting to it, or possibly a problem with subzero cooling (some processors don't like it...even if 100 others do, one might not).

 

 

also if you read around, you can see that an 850w PCP&C is too much psu for what you have...there is such a thing as having too much power, and not enough load for that power, thereby wasting power as well as causing problems. A 510w PCP&C is waaay more than enough power for your setup.

 

but let me know if you want me to take a personal look at the board myself, or if you want to just send it to DFI RMA and have them take a look at it.

 

 

 

 

ps: you really should read the rules and fill in your location as per rule #9....makes things a lot easier for us...

[PC1X1]

Interesting points, -ultimatelly working with building computers/ components, I agree DFI does not do anything different, in reality all RMA sucks, because people abuse it, however overall I think RMA is a priviledge even though they make a huge amount of money of us, we are given a opportunity to get something back sometimes to our own faults. The offer for personal looking in the mobo, is great and would take it.- I looked at the expert users, 1) why would you change a SLI-DR to Expert beats me, when the performance in the real world isn't needed, then they overclock happy, I mean what magic do you expect? Beta bios, won't even go into that one, the only beta bios I would use is one I wrote, or modified, since that takes forever, and my skills are limited that doesn't happen often, so always use the best stable normal bios, they aren't that much different, or use a well timely tested bios. The problems I seen with the expert were due to impatience for the most part.

Anyhow!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

looked at both sides, personally "I bought it it works" .

[Angry_Games]

overall I think RMA is a priviledge even though they make a huge amount of money of us

 

hrmmm...if you worked in the industry...you'd know that margins are so tight that there's not much room to make money these days...

[maverik-sg1]

AG - I appreciate your offer to look at my board and pay shipping costs both ways and if you pm me details of how to do this we can sort out using that method - It defintely needs to be addressed. I will purchase a new board in the interim so that I have a working system.

 

Okay there are conflicting pieces of information sweeping the web right now - the 7/12 BIOS which is BETA is supposed to stop the occasional 3v jump into the CPU, I am also given to understand that this will be the next official release.... Source XS. The reason why I would risk using a BETA BIOS is to avoid the cost of replacing a CPU - also you all assume that the 1st release BIOS would allow my system to operate correctly - you assume wrong I am sorry to say.

 

With release BIOS, I Installed 1x512MB stick of OCZ PC5000 TCCD ram (in each slot one at a time) would not even boot (3 LEDS lit up) - Used one stick of BH5 in Orange slot and it booted, put the other stick in the other orange slot and it had the same problem ( 3 LED's) - update to Beta BIOS 25/11 and BH5 would boot with two sticks and the unit would overclock but even at stock would keep shutting down.

 

Installed 07/12 BIOS and unit will overclcok or stay at stock longer before shutting down or BSOD - but still not stable.

 

Why change from SLI-DR to Expert? - the reason is simple I use BH5 and have found that the 4v DIMM solution on the DR to be less than perfect, the heat generated by that one MOSFET is enough cause for concern to actively cool it with a 92MM fan - the spacing between the PCI-E is better for SLI and the postion of the CPU socket allows better installation of the phase cooler - improved gas flow equals better temps, better temps = better overclocks at same voltage and more stability (We would hope).

 

AG you spoke about sometimes you can provide too much power - why has this PSU worked perfectly on the SLI-DR with the EXACT same setup for nearly 5 months now now? I find it hard to understand why you would say that? For your information I was using a 510 SLI DLX PSU by PCP&C previous to that - which was actually overloaded by the total overclocked power draw, hence the need to upgrade, sine that time system was as good as it could be.

[red930]

For Clarity...

 

There is only one source for "official" information. It certainly isn't XS or any other forum.

 

"Okay there are conflicting pieces of information sweeping the web right now - the 7/12 BIOS which is BETA is supposed to stop the occasional 3v jump into the CPU, I am also given to understand that this will be the next official release.... Source XS."

[maverik-sg1]

For Clarity...

 

There is only one source for "official" information. It certainly isn't XS or any other forum.

 

"Okay there are conflicting pieces of information sweeping the web right now - the 7/12 BIOS which is BETA is supposed to stop the occasional 3v jump into the CPU, I am also given to understand that this will be the next official release.... Source XS."

 

 

I think it's fair to say that in the absence of any offical information (details regarding DFI's postion in this matter is conspicuous by it's absence) people draw their own conclusions. Feel free to provide a linky to any official information regarding this please.

 

I think it's also fair to say that he guys over at XS do have a line of communication with Mr Oskar Wu and other offical sources within DFI - or can we clear that up once and for all also?

 

Also - I do take this opportunity to withdraw the comment about a mass recall - I think what would be workable would be for DFI to accept that some people in certain conditions will experience problems using this board - those that do can simply get the unit returned to their nearest dealer who will test the fault and replace with the latest rev.

 

Out of interest which revision AA0 A02 etc is the oldes t and which is the latest? reason I ask is that if I buy another unit while AG investigates the peculiar behaviour of this board I want to make sure it is the very very latest revision.

 

Cheers

 

Mav

[Angry_Games]

AG you spoke about sometimes you can provide too much power - why has this PSU worked perfectly on the SLI-DR with the EXACT same setup for nearly 5 months now now?

 

why does something work for you and not for others? why does something work for others and not you? why does the earth have just the right amount of heat, oxygen, nitrogen to sustain life while other planets don't? You answer these questions and you'll answer your own question. I only call them as I see them, and I can pretty well guarantee that I see more than you since I do this for a living and have to deal with customers by the hundreds every day. Doesn't make me smarter than you or anyone. Does make me a lot more experienced and able to pass such judgements on things.

 

 

Okay there are conflicting pieces of information sweeping the web right now - the 7/12 BIOS which is BETA is supposed to stop the occasional 3v jump into the CPU, I am also given to understand that this will be the next official release.... Source XS.

 

if XS is your source then you should be asking for help there. But last I checked, they don't work for DFI, and they don't have the total knowledge and experience with DFI that this forum and it's users do. XS might be great for extreme things, but they aren't really that great at tech support and troubleshooting. Great if you want to overclock with -240°C Quadruple Phase Change units up to 4Ghz....but not so great in helping you figure out why your RAID-0 set shows up as two disks in Windows instead of a single RAID drive...

 

I think it's fair to say that in the absence of any offical information (details regarding DFI's postion in this matter is conspicuous by it's absence) people draw their own conclusions. Feel free to provide a linky to any official information regarding this please.

 

again you are being unrealistic. Just because YOU have a problem, or read that a couple of others have a problem, does not mean it is an epidemic. Again you are frustrated because something doesnt work for you, and you see another user or three with a similar problem, and you run out yelling the sky is falling the sky is falling why wont DFI admit this or that? when there is nothing to admit...the simple fact is that it does not work for you. Thats it.

 

I think it's also fair to say that he guys over at XS do have a line of communication with Mr Oskar Wu and other offical sources within DFI - or can we clear that up once and for all also?

 

does Oskar Wu do tech support?

 

no

 

Does Oskar Wu show up over there to support his motherboards?

 

no, he shows up to tell someone he got a 4.43Ghz overclock, or to speak a sentence or two about his motherboard or bios or whatever.

 

but

 

again, I think you should direct your questions for support over to XS forums as that seems to be where you feel the 'truthful' answers or the 'correct' answers will come from. Start a thread there and I bet you will get some help with your problem (along with plenty of comments about what a jerk and how stupid I am).

 

 

 

Also - I do take this opportunity to withdraw the comment about a mass recall - I think what would be workable would be for DFI to accept that some people in certain conditions will experience problems using this board - those that do can simply get the unit returned to their nearest dealer who will test the fault and replace with the latest rev.

 

um...every company already knows their product is not going to work for everyone. Thats why all of us have RMA departments...

 

I don't use PM's at this forum. If you want to send your board to me, you will need to email me (you can email me from this forum)

[maverik-sg1]

Ref the PSU - the only thing that I question here was that the PSU worked great in teh same set-up using the previous board - I would assume that being the case there would be no such problem usign the latest generation of the same board? Over power? Okay I can agree over power normally means overvolts to electronics - as the components will only draw the amps it needs from the supply (it would be unwise for me to say u can never have enough amps, but I am sure PSU manufacturers understand the limits in that respect) - as far as voltages are concerned - fear not this PSU is the BEST with minimal ripple in the worst possible conditions - I wont rule anything out and bow to your experience just my views (from an engineering perspective).

 

I do desperately want someone to investigate this board - it just BSODS while sat in windows at stock now - email on it's way mate. Of course if I have been unlucky enough to have the only two boards in the UK where one has totally failed - the other is unuseable over a 2hr period then I can only hope the 3rd will be the answer to my prayers and I would thank anyone that can help me get thorugh this difficult period.

 

I understand the reasons of RMA and that not everything works for everyone but most people expect that the latest revision of a board is at least able to be as compatable as it's predecessor (in this case the SLI DR) in every way.

 

I make my own judgements about people and certainly do not set-out to flame people for no reason - I refer to XS as they seem to be the only people who have made any sort comment/investigation about the EXPERT situation and appear to have DFI comments to be able to make informed threads. I state for this one - official DFI comments are no-where to be seen so people with issues will look for any comments and draw their own conclusions and jump on the media band-wagon so to speak.

 

That said - if Mr Oskar Wu cannot comment and their other unnofficial sources are not allowed to comment either - is it about time someone did, either to quash the hysteria or to discuss solutions?

 

I do understand the politics and the reasons why some things can and can't be said.

 

Selfishly -I am happy with the solution you have provided and I will drop you an email shortly regarding my return to you at your cost.

 

PS: While we were talking the screen went blank again whilst running superpi stability test at stock

[Angry_Games]

you need to re-read the rules, specifically rule #9 that states you must fill in your location. I don't know where you live, and if you live anywhere other than USA/Canada, I cannot take a personal look at your board unless you pay the shipping costs (this is why rule #9 is there...so we know where you live and where we can send you for specific help if this forum cannot provide the help you require).