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#13 Guest_Jim_*

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Posted 15 January 2013 - 09:24 AM

for all three positions it would be pull my 4 knives out as quickly as possible stand up throw first knife move throw second knife move attack hand to hand with a knife in each hand

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#14 EuroFight

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Posted 15 January 2013 - 09:52 AM

for all three positions it would be pull my 4 knives out as quickly as possible stand up throw first knife move throw second knife move attack hand to hand with a knife in each hand

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#15 El_Capitan

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Posted 15 January 2013 - 10:31 AM

I'm pretty accurate with throwing knives, but don't carry them around with me. The smaller knives, unless thrown accurately into the face or neck, won't do much except distract the gunman for a second or two. The bigger throwing knives can wound a bit more, and if thrown to the heart can kill. However, guaging the distance in a real situation can be difficult, and being right-handed with the gunman coming from the right doesn't give you a safer throwing angle, though the right-side will be available to throw at, first.

 

I usually practice my throwing distance at 15, 20, 25 and 30 feet. Any closer, it's better to keep the knife and get in close instead of throwing it.

 

Smaller throwing knives, I spin to get more force in my throw. If the distance is greater or less than 2 feet difference than my throwing distance, the knife will most likely hit butt-end. However, I know that the smaller throwing knives is used to maim, and not kill, so hitting with the pointy end is just the better result.

 

Larger throwing knives, it's important not to make it spin, as the point is to hit a vital organ for a kill. I use the modified hammer grip for throwing the larger throwing knives with no spin. I don't need to "guage" my distance or put a lot of force in my throw. It's more important that you're accurate.



#16 Onion

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Posted 15 January 2013 - 11:10 AM

I'm pretty accurate with throwing knives, but don't carry them around with me. The smaller knives, unless thrown accurately into the face or neck, won't do much except distract the gunman for a second or two. The bigger throwing knives can wound a bit more, and if thrown to the heart can kill. However, guaging the distance in a real situation can be difficult, and being right-handed with the gunman coming from the right doesn't give you a safer throwing angle, though the right-side will be available to throw at, first.
 
I usually practice my throwing distance at 15, 20, 25 and 30 feet. Any closer, it's better to keep the knife and get in close instead of throwing it.
 
Smaller throwing knives, I spin to get more force in my throw. If the distance is greater or less than 2 feet difference than my throwing distance, the knife will most likely hit butt-end. However, I know that the smaller throwing knives is used to maim, and not kill, so hitting with the pointy end is just the better result.
 
Larger throwing knives, it's important not to make it spin, as the point is to hit a vital organ for a kill. I use the modified hammer grip for throwing the larger throwing knives with no spin. I don't need to "guage" my distance or put a lot of force in my throw. It's more important that you're accurate.


If you get a good balisong, it can be thrown pretty well and fairly accurately - more so than a folder or fixed blade. I love how multifunctional butterfly knives are. Cutting, folding, playing, throwing, the list goes on.

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#17 Fogel

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Posted 15 January 2013 - 03:48 PM

 I wanted to go over Position A bit more as well as some general details on the situation in general.

 

Its not typical to hear of a robber hitting a restaurant (usually he'd be going for someone/thing specific) or a hostage situation developing there so to assume he is there for mass harm is a good assumption.  The gunman open fires without any word so everyone immediately got the impression action must be made quickly, which is great.  No one said they will wait and see if he makes any demands first.  If you are in Position A you can't wait for that.  In Position B or C you can wait to see how he continues or how the crowd reacts to the situation.  Since the gunman isn't shouting he is probably well disciplined, planned this in advance and has a task.  You notice he is carrying two pistols so he is armed for close range combat.  He waited until he got to the seating area before revealing himself instead of shooting the hostesses upon entering giving people a chance to scatter.   He chose a resteraunt that has view of most of the people in the restaurant versus one with multiple sections.  He could possibly have more weapons on him but you just have a chance to notice the two pistols he is wielding.

 

I'm not sure people took away from this is how little time you have to react since his guns are already drawn and he can see every movement you make even before you notice him.  In this Position it is fair to assume he is roughly 10ft. away from you. If you were to shoot multiple targets in front of you how long does it take for you to move your gun to the next target?  Consider that as the amount of time you have to gauge the situation and react.   Some of you mentioned pulling out your knives and throwing them at him.  Would you say you could go from a relaxed conversation posture to reaching for your knives to accuratly hitting him before he can move his gun from directly in front of him to a bit lower left of him?  No one mentioned where they keep their knives (leg strap, waist, etc.) so could you reach for your knives without giving him the threat of immediate danger and possibly picking someone else?

 

One thing I failed to do in this scenario was tell you where you are sitting in relation to the table, the person you are with and the gunman and yet no one asked.  In Position A, my seating arrangement greatly affects my actions.  I believe EuroFight and DM are the only ones who chose to interact with their environment.  All the other answers seemed independent of their environment.  As said, I am struggling to find a good solution to A but here are some of the thoughts I had for that spot.

 


Position A - Sitting with Back to Gunman, companion to side or other side of table

 

Push off with my feet into a charge (that chair better not trip me! :lol:), head down, going straight at the gunman, hit both of his arms with my arms popping them outward and attempt to grab his extended hands.  If I am able to grab his hands I would yank them to the side of me to jar him, knee him to the gut/groin possibly headbutting him as his head may fall forward, and then attempt to twist the guns in hands (outwards) to put pressure if not break his fingers.  Then go for the knees with a kick.  If I fail the grab I would attempt to open hand uppercut to try and make his jaw rattle and then reattempt a locking scenario.

 

Chances of getting to him would be very small.  Its possible to cover 10ft. on someone very quickly.   But starting from a sitting posture and making a move in on a guy with his guns drawn would take some luck.  Since it is restaurant setting, I may try and grab either the silverware or a glass on the table and throw those at him to buy an extra half of a second (or more) of reaction time.

 


Position A - Facing Gunman, table in between and companion to side or other side of table

 

Really not sure on this one, possible try and dive to floor with my companion's hand so I yank them down with me and attempt to use the tables with their table cloths as cover and crawl East (if Front Door = North) through the tables and try to get behind the fireplace as soon as possible with companion in tow.

 

Not sure if throwing a glass or silverware would help or be more of a detriment.  Simply ducking might make us a less attractive target since non-threatning and someone from a booth could attack him if he focused on us, but a table provides no protection outside of lack of visibility.  If I throw something at him it may piss him off enough to ensure he focuses on us even with partial visibility or no visibility.  But throwing multiple objects like silverware at him may distract him enough to lose focus and he may just react to the easiest targets or anyone possibly charging him.



#18 Deathmineral

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Posted 15 January 2013 - 08:55 PM

 I wanted to go over Position A bit more as well as some general details on the situation in general.

 

Its not typical to hear of a robber hitting a restaurant (usually he'd be going for someone/thing specific) or a hostage situation developing there so to assume he is there for mass harm is a good assumption.  The gunman open fires without any word so everyone immediately got the impression action must be made quickly, which is great.  No one said they will wait and see if he makes any demands first.  If you are in Position A you can't wait for that.  In Position B or C you can wait to see how he continues or how the crowd reacts to the situation.  Since the gunman isn't shouting he is probably well disciplined, planned this in advance and has a task.  You notice he is carrying two pistols so he is armed for close range combat.  He waited until he got to the seating area before revealing himself instead of shooting the hostesses upon entering giving people a chance to scatter.   He chose a resteraunt that has view of most of the people in the restaurant versus one with multiple sections.  He could possibly have more weapons on him but you just have a chance to notice the two pistols he is wielding.

 

I'm not sure people took away from this is how little time you have to react since his guns are already drawn and he can see every movement you make even before you notice him.  In this Position it is fair to assume he is roughly 10ft. away from you. If you were to shoot multiple targets in front of you how long does it take for you to move your gun to the next target?  Consider that as the amount of time you have to gauge the situation and react.   Some of you mentioned pulling out your knives and throwing them at him.  Would you say you could go from a relaxed conversation posture to reaching for your knives to accuratly hitting him before he can move his gun from directly in front of him to a bit lower left of him?  No one mentioned where they keep their knives (leg strap, waist, etc.) so could you reach for your knives without giving him the threat of immediate danger and possibly picking someone else?

 

One thing I failed to do in this scenario was tell you where you are sitting in relation to the table, the person you are with and the gunman and yet no one asked.  In Position A, my seating arrangement greatly affects my actions.  I believe EuroFight and DM are the only ones who chose to interact with their environment.  All the other answers seemed independent of their environment.  As said, I am struggling to find a good solution to A but here are some of the thoughts I had for that spot.

I was thinking about timing more than anything, that's why A simply feels impossible to me, doesn't help that I still don't understand A either. :lol: The amount of time I would have to react is pretty small, I would guess I have less than 2 or 3 seconds to do something. That was why my first decision would have been to simply rush or tackle the shooter, I'm pretty sure there wouldn't be time to pull a knife or gun, perhaps a gun if you're really good with it. I really don't think it's all that useful to guess at the skill of the shooter ahead of time, it's something you simply can't know, and to use ourselves as examples wouldn't work for those that haven't shot at all, like myself. All the same, I'm sure there are some here that are quite skilled in shooting a handgun. I would say this, if anything, I think the fact that they're dual wielding pistols could affect it, I would think it would take them slightly longer with aiming and would make their aim worse even. That's just speculation though, like I said, never shot a gun myself.

 

In regards to knife carry, I have mine on my belt, depending on what shirt I might be wearing at the time, it could be visible or it could be hidden, it's more than likely going to be hidden though. Having a fixed blade, I would say I can probably draw faster than I could with a pocket knife for sure. Even so, the shooter would probably get me first, I'm in clear view and close up, I don't think I'd stand a chance unless I just immediately starting rushing him.

 

As for positioning, I made my post based on the idea that we're seated in the spot the letters are, so back turned on A. If other way around, I wouldn't really know what to do, if I had a gun, it would probably be my first choice, but if they're on a side of the table, I might try flipping it for cover.

 

I actually just thought of something else though, and I think it's definitely something I would try. I also carry a flashlight on me all the time, I could easily blind the shooter with it, it's a pretty bright one. From there I could try attacking myself or maybe see if someone else might while I blind them. By which I mean, take a quick look around to see if anyone else might, not like verbally ask someone to do it, that would give the shooter too much time and probably start shooting at random. Only reason I would check for that is because I wouldn't really be able to keep blinding them and rush them at the same time. If I had a gun I think I could feel pretty confident using the flashlight with it.


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#19 bishop245

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Posted 16 January 2013 - 09:12 AM

I carry a small lock blade made by zippo, and oldtimer tri folder, a kershaw can't remember the type, my leatherman, and could have any of a dozen other blades on me at any one time.

A knife doesn't need to be balanced to be able to throw properly you just have to have practice is all



#20 Onion

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Posted 16 January 2013 - 06:33 PM

A knife doesn't need to be balanced to be able to throw properly you just have to have practice is all


A car doesn't have to be balanced to set a good time around a track, but just like throwing a knife - it helps a whole lot.

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#21 bishop245

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Posted 16 January 2013 - 09:49 PM

Yes having a balanced knife makes it easier to throw, but knowing the balance point of a knife makes it less difficult to throw atleast for me.

 

 

Lesson #1 is knowing when to throw.

Lesson #2 is to never throw your only weapon :)



#22 IVIYTH0S

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Posted 17 January 2013 - 03:24 PM

This could always be the answer for the knife versus gun argument:


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#23 Fogel

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Posted 18 January 2013 - 08:37 AM

I was thinking about timing more than anything, that's why A simply feels impossible to me, doesn't help that I still don't understand A either. :lol: The amount of time I would have to react is pretty small, I would guess I have less than 2 or 3 seconds to do something. That was why my first decision would have been to simply rush or tackle the shooter, I'm pretty sure there wouldn't be time to pull a knife or gun, perhaps a gun if you're really good with it. I really don't think it's all that useful to guess at the skill of the shooter ahead of time, it's something you simply can't know, and to use ourselves as examples wouldn't work for those that haven't shot at all, like myself. All the same, I'm sure there are some here that are quite skilled in shooting a handgun. I would say this, if anything, I think the fact that they're dual wielding pistols could affect it, I would think it would take them slightly longer with aiming and would make their aim worse even. That's just speculation though, like I said, never shot a gun myself.

 

As for positioning, I made my post based on the idea that we're seated in the spot the letters are, so back turned on A. If other way around, I wouldn't really know what to do, if I had a gun, it would probably be my first choice, but if they're on a side of the table, I might try flipping it for cover.

 

I actually just thought of something else though, and I think it's definitely something I would try. I also carry a flashlight on me all the time, I could easily blind the shooter with it, it's a pretty bright one. From there I could try attacking myself or maybe see if someone else might while I blind them. By which I mean, take a quick look around to see if anyone else might, not like verbally ask someone to do it, that would give the shooter too much time and probably start shooting at random. Only reason I would check for that is because I wouldn't really be able to keep blinding them and rush them at the same time. If I had a gun I think I could feel pretty confident using the flashlight with it.

 

 

I actually rather enjoy your responses because you put thought into them.  I did give this guy some weaknesses ...to make it a bit more fun for people.  You are correct, dual wielding pistols is not extremely accurate even if he was firing one at a time.  Seung-Hui Cho dual wielded pistols on his rampage through Virginia Tech so its not unthinkable for someone to choose this loadout.

 

Position A feels rather impossible to me as well which is why I started this thread.   To see what ideas people could come up with.  Though I'm really surprised only you and Euro would use your environment to your advantage.  I really was expecting to see more creative replies for Positions B & C.

 

I'm also surprised to not see how people would respond to this scenario if they had a gun.   There are a lot of people that work on their draw technique and in different scenarios.  With as many pro gun people we have here I was expecting people to lay down the law.

 

I gotta admit, the image was rushed.  I did have the notion while I was making it people would assume their seating is where the letter was but after I made the post and saw where I put the letters it didn't quite make sense.  I think it is fair to assume what you did especially since I originally thought people might make that same assumption. :tongue:

 

The flashlight idea is great and it is a technique people use.   Though typically they use it to get that extra fraction of a second that could save their life.  You would have to act quick if you chose to use that method.  I also thought about flipping the table over but it would really depend where I was sitting and where my companion was sitting.  Flipping it on them would not be cool in the least. :lol:  Not to mention its not shield so much as a way to limit their view of you.

 

This could always be the answer for the knife versus gun argument:

 

Nice :)

 

Ghetto rigged switchblade to act like a ballistic knife?



#24 bishop245

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Posted 18 January 2013 - 08:24 PM

Its a stiletto not a switch blade lol