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#1 Coors

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Posted 20 December 2012 - 01:07 AM

Surprised this topic hasn't been restarted yet considering the media circus currently going on.  I posted a long reply to a different thread in a different forum where they were talking about the typical stuff.  Below is my response to the topics they brought up.  You should be able to get the jist of it even without their initial comments.  Feel free to discuss your thoughts.

 

 

"As far as car and gun comparisons go, driving a car is a priviledge. Owning a gun is a right. Thats a pretty significant difference. More people are killed in car related accidents than firearm related accidents. It's really not even a close comparison.

As far as waiting periods go. What difference do you really think it makes? Absolutely none. Most people that do these types of things don't just wake up one day and think "Gee, I want to kill some people today. Just need to stop by the gun shop and buy the gun and some ammo...Oh gee, I can't do it today. Guess I have to wait 10 days." Most of them already have access to guns. Or they have been planning the attack for quite some time. A lot longer than 10 days.

And for the record, an AR15 is not an assault rifle. An assault rifle is capable of select fire aka burst or full auto. And calling it an "assault weapon" is just a term meant to demonize it. Only ignorant hypocritical c**ts like Feinstein and Bloomberg call them "deadly assault weapons with high capacity clips capable of holding more than 10 bullets". All the while they themselves have CCW permits or 24/7 armed police protecting them. An AR15 is a semi-automatic rifle that is no different than most hunting rifles except it "looks scary". It's also a smaller caliber than most hunting rifles. The only advantage it has over most hunting rifles are the standard 30 round magazines. Yes, standard 30 round magazines. Not "high capacity clips". The real high capacity magazines and drums are mostly junk and can't even go through one cycle without jammimg. Only a moron would actually use one to try and effectively kill as many people as possible. Pretty sure the Aurora shooter had a 50 or 100 round drum that jammed on him.

Training. I'm all for proper safety training. It can teach people to properly handle their firearms and help prevent NDs and people accidently being shot. Won't do jack sh*t for mass murderers though. You think someone that is shooting at people is going to care if his finger is on the trigger? Or what is behind his target? Nope.

Are people really still blaming video games, movies and music for mass murderers? Same sh*t was said about Columbine. Marilyn Manson didn't make them do it. His devil music didn't speak to them. They didn't train with Grand Theft Auto. Thats a bullsh*t excuse and a scapegoat.

No gun control is going to stop people from killing people. No spoon control is going to stop people from getting fat. No law is going to stop criminals from breaking the law. You want to prevent these kinds of attacks? Then find out what makes these people tick. What makes these people do what they do. But there is no answer to those questions. There wasn't when this guy killed 20 kids and 7 adults. There wasn't any answers for the Aurora shooter. None for Columbine. 85 years later there is still no answer for why Andrew Kehoe killed his wife, set his house on fire and blew up a school killing 38 kids, 6 adults and injuring 58 others. Insane people doing insane acts of violence is nothing new. People have been killing people since the beginning of time. And people will continue to kill until the end of time. No feel good laws are going to change that. Maybe if people would properly parent and discipline their kids they wouldn't grow up to be evil little shitheads. But today if you spank your kid you're an evil bad person. We give everyone a trophy because handling dissapointment is just too hard. And people wonder why society is filled with a bunch of emo cry babies that feel like they should have everything handed to them in life and have no sense of personal responsibility.


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#2 Stonerboy779

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Posted 20 December 2012 - 01:45 AM

No gun control is going to stop people from killing people.

 

Just want to focus on one point.

 

So no gun control measures have any affect whatsoever? Did I read what you said right? I agree with a lot of the things you said and people should have to take responsibility for their own actions. Video games and music cannot just become scapegoats. Mental health is a serious matter and so on.

 

Now you believe that enforcing stricter laws on gun ownership will do nothing to help prevent gun related mass murders? If that is the case I as why hasn't there been a massacre in Australia since the Port Arthur Massacre? A shooting that spurred a whole wave of new and tight gun laws in Aus.

 

Now waiting periods of 10 days really aren't waiting periods hell you can wait that long on postage of items. In aus there are signifigant waiting periods. First you need a genuine reason for owning a firearm (and to protect yourself isn't good enough). To apply you need 100 points of ID and then you need to undergo a firearms awareness test and go through a 28 day waiting period.

 

In Aus we have different weapons categories ranging from rifles (non sa) shotguns (non sa or pump action) air rifles and paintball markers that fit the first category and are easiest to obtain to categories for semi automatic weapons that are only obtainable by government agencies (read army/navy/airforce and recently police that finally moved to semi automatic handguns replacing their revolvers) occupational shooters may also be eligible as well as collectors (deactivated weaponry only)

 

Then there is a class h for handguns and to obtain these you must be a member of a club and must use club handguns for a period of six months before you can acquire your own you are also restricted to lower caliber handguns and mags of a max 10 rounds. There may sometimes be licence for use of .45 cal handguns in specific competitions. Again however collectors become exempt from some limits. 

 

There is no way I could go out right now at 19 and purchase a handgun and a concealed-carry licence. Although in some states in the US I could do just that hell even at 30 I couldn't carry concealed weaponry or even just carry it in public (excusing the fact I am into the army in a few months time). It just doesn't happen due to the highly restrictive laws.

 

There is a final class which is restricted weapons that includes but is not limited to machine guns, rocket launchers, assault rifles, flame-throwers, anti-tank guns, Howitzers, artillery, predator drones, tanks, etc. In some states a Collector may own them if they are rendered permanently inoperable but they still need to undergo the same storage measures as other weapons.

 

One other thing you mentioned was.

 

 

As far as car and gun comparisons go, driving a car is a priviledge. Owning a gun is a right. Thats a pretty significant difference.

 

I would say that owning a gun should be a privilege just like driving. I don't see why gun ownership should ever be a right in this day and age. In aus it is a privilege and while it is more difficult there are still ways to own and use firearms. 

 

I would definitely say that the difference in how readily available firearms are makes a difference in how often gun related mass murders occur  Last massacre in Aus, Port Arthur in 1996 in the US in comparison in the last few years since Obama was elected there have been 14 shootings that have been called massacres.

 

The final issue tight gun control will bring is all the weapons that are out there which is why the Aus police have weapons amnesty days where you can bring in anything without consequence not just guns but knives and swords and other weaponry too.


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#3 Deathmineral

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Posted 20 December 2012 - 02:03 AM

I know why this topic hasn't been restarted, TLDR.


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#4 Fogel

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Posted 20 December 2012 - 04:04 AM

"As far as car and gun comparisons go, driving a car is a priviledge. Owning a gun is a right. Thats a pretty significant difference. More people are killed in car related accidents than firearm related accidents. It's really not even a close comparison.

 

I don't believe in removing guns ...not only that but I think they are too prelevant to remove now.

 

Though I do think we need to make it a priviledge.   People are too stupid to deserve this right.   Going to shooting range and seeing how many people have no fricken clue how to handle a gun is frightning.  Then realizing there is only a small bit of plastic between you and them is beyond scary!  Many people who own guns have no respect for them.  And saying it is a "right" gives these people no reason to respect them.   I think people need to earn the right to bear arms but I also think people are too stupid for many of the rights/luxuries we are able to take advantage of.  Speaking of driving.   Everytime I get on the road there are people I would never give a license to.   I think they need to be more strict on driving tests as well because I wouldn't trust many of the drivers I see with my hot wheels.



#5 dr_bowtie

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Posted 20 December 2012 - 04:13 AM

I find it funny when ever there is a mass shooting the first thing they do is tout Gun Control....they blame the Guns for the incident and take away the blame from the person(s) responsible. Yet when a Drunk Driver kills someone we never hear them cry Car Control and try to ban automobiles. Just how ridiculous does that sound.

 

I feel bad and feel for the loss of all the innocent people who have died by the hands of someone using a weapon....but I also feel that same sadness of those that died by the hands of a drunk driver wielding a car...yet driving is a privilege...... ironic 


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#6 vandreadstriker

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Posted 20 December 2012 - 05:14 AM

Here's what I never did understand: Why do you need a Gun in the first place?

Coming from a nation where Guns are prohibited by law to be used by non-officials, I've never understand why you'd need a Gun..

To protect yourself? Sure, but when guns are banned, even those who'd mess with you won't have access to guns (well, not always true, but the majority won't).

 

So I'd like to ask those of you who do own a gun (or three): Why do you own them? (Keep in mind that I'm not, in anyway, accusing you of any wrong doings. I'm asking this just out of sheer curiousity and to understand better the mindset of people who purchase Guns)

 

May the victimns who were involved in the shootings earlier this week rest in peace. :RIP:


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#7 Knight_72

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Posted 20 December 2012 - 05:24 AM

Here's what I never did understand: Why do you need a Gun in the first place?

Coming from a nation where Guns are prohibited by law to be used by non-officials, I've never understand why you'd need a Gun..

To protect yourself? Sure, but when guns are banned, even those who'd mess with you won't have access to guns (well, not always true, but the majority won't).

 

So I'd like to ask those of you who do own a gun (or three): Why do you own them? (Keep in mind that I'm not, in anyway, accusing you of any wrong doings. I'm asking this just out of sheer curiousity and to understand better the mindset of people who purchase Guns)

 

May the victimns who were involved in the shootings earlier this week rest in peace. :RIP:

 

Well my opinion is that you should be able to have a gun for safety of yourself and your family BUT I do not see who the hell besides law enforcement needs a shotgun, rifle (semi-auto or full auto), submachine gun, sniper rifle or any gun that is not along the lines of a pistol/revolver.

 

It is true that criminals will obtain weapons via the black market with strict laws anyway but criminals will always be there and chances are you owning a rifle or shotgun will not deter them anyway. Criminals also often gain something from their crimes such as money or expensive items while some demented people such as the Newtown guy, Dark Knight cinema guy and many other people in ALL countries do it because they have some psychological issues that were not found during strict gun licensing procedures or detected during gun license renewals.


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#8 Phil

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Posted 20 December 2012 - 05:28 AM

I own guns because I like them, they are a neccessay tool on a livestock farm, and for self defense.

 

It's unrealistic to to think that removing guns from a society where some half a billion guns are in private hands will have any effect.  People will still have guns, only the balance will shift to the bad guys.

 

In the USA our rights and freedoms are eroding.  The original idea of an armed society to prevent a rogue government from taking our freedoms away seems as relevant today as ever.  Govermnments are brutalizing their citizens all over the world as I type this.  Can'tg happen here?  Why can' t it?


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#9 Phil

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Posted 20 December 2012 - 05:36 AM

 

Well my opinion is that you should be able to have a gun for safety of yourself and your family BUT I do not see who the hell besides law enforcement needs a shotgun, rifle (semi-auto or full auto), submachine gun, sniper rifle or any gun that is not along the lines of a pistol/revolver.

 

 

 

 

Sorry Nyt, but there is a whole world out there that seems to escape you.  The legitimate uses for all classes of firearms are myriad.  Shotguns?  No skeet shooting?  Bird hunting?  Varmint control?  If I need to shoot a racoon that's murdering my chickens do I shoot it with a rifle and risk that a stray bullet still has enough force to kill, or do I use a shotgun with pellets which quickly lose energy and fall to earth harmlessly?  I could go on but hoperfully you get the idea.


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#10 SpeedCrazy

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Posted 20 December 2012 - 05:45 AM

No gun control is going to stop people from killing people.


Just want to focus on one point.

So no gun control measures have any affect whatsoever? Did I read what you said right? I agree with a lot of the things you said and people should have to take responsibility for their own actions. Video games and music cannot just become scapegoats. Mental health is a serious matter and so on.

Now you believe that enforcing stricter laws on gun ownership will do nothing to help prevent gun related mass murders? If that is the case I as why hasn't there been a massacre in Australia since the Port Arthur Massacre? A shooting that spurred a whole wave of new and tight gun laws in Aus.


Stricter gun laws will do squat here. I don't have hard facts for this one but i believe i read that the latest estimate is that there are 9 handguns for every 10 people in the US, thats just handguns not rifles, shotguns etc. ITs impossible to get those all out of circulation so imposing rules making it harder to get guns will only stop law abiding people from getting guns.

As far as car and gun comparisons go, driving a car is a privilege. Owning a gun is a right. Thats a pretty significant difference.

I would say that owning a gun should be a privilege just like driving. I don't see why gun ownership should ever be a right in this day and age. In aus it is a privilege and while it is more difficult there are still ways to own and use firearms.


Though I do think we need to make it a privilege. People are too stupid to deserve this right. Going to shooting range and seeing how many people have no fricken clue how to handle a gun is frighting. Then realizing there is only a small bit of plastic between you and them is beyond scary! Many people who own guns have no respect for them. And saying it is a "right" gives these people no reason to respect them. I think people need to earn the right to bear arms but I also think people are too stupid for many of the rights/luxuries we are able to take advantage of.

It is a right laid down in the constitution. End of story, there is no changing that. The problem is that as you said Fogel, people do not respect that right, with right comes responsibility and as a culture we are very good at shunning responsibility. Everyone, even our government, helps us shift our responsibility to someone or something else. This is the problem.

Here's what I never did understand: Why do you need a Gun in the first place?
Coming from a nation where Guns are prohibited by law to be used by non-officials, I've never understand why you'd need a Gun..
To protect yourself? Sure, but when guns are banned, even those who'd mess with you won't have access to guns (well, not always true, but the majority won't).

As i have already said there are a huge number of guns in circulation already, and even if there weren't its only a 5 min pop across the border to Mexico to get as many as you want. The main problem with this approach is that only law abiding people follow the law.... strange huh... if i am set on shooting someone i will find a gun. I said this before in the other thread "outlaw guns and only outlaws will have guns".

So I'd like to ask those of you who do own a gun (or three): Why do you own them? (Keep in mind that I'm not, in anyway, accusing you of any wrong doings. I'm asking this just out of sheer curiousity and to understand better the mindset of people who purchase Guns)

I own rifles and shotguns to hunt. And no i don't have an AR. But that only because i cant shoot a deer with a 7.62, and i prefer a shotgun for home defense.
And i own handguns for defense. I carry a handgun "because i can't carry a policeman". A little story to help you understand as you put it the mindset: About a mile from where i live - out in the sticks - there was a break in and a shooting. The gentleman in question, the one who was shot, called the police as soon as he saw the masked dude coming across his lawn. 30 mins later the police turn up and find a body and and an empty safe.... The police's job is to put the bad guys behind bars, not stop them from committing crime. So its up to us to defend ourselves. i carry "because i can't carry a policeman".
Note in saying its our job to defend ourselves i am in no way condoning or encouraging vigilantism, that is prosecution, that is the job of the police and the courts, if i leave the sucker breathing.

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#11 Phil

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Posted 20 December 2012 - 05:51 AM

It also bears noting that the appearance of a gun for self defense ends the threat over 90 percent of the time with no shots fired.  You can argue how such data is collected, but it just makes sense, doesn't it?


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#12 xPETEZx

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Posted 20 December 2012 - 07:30 AM

Every time one of these topics comes up, I am amazed that people draw a parallel to cars/driving.

I dont see it.

 

A cars primary function is to get you from A to B. Not to kill. 

Much like the purpose of a saw is to cut material. Not to kill.

A gun is designed to kill. Its function is for killing. Be that people/animals whatever. Its primary purpose is to kill things. Sure you may use it for sport or shooting at the range but this is NOT what it was designed for. It was designed to end life.

 

So, with that laid out, why do people compare owning a gun to owning a Car? 

Yes a car can kill, but so can many many many other things in life whose primary function is not killing.

A guns primary function is killing. 


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