Newtown Massacre

[Fogel]

Just for the record.  An AR15 is not an assault rifle.  The AR in AR15 does not stand for assault rifle.  It stands for Armalite which is the company that designed it.  An assault rifle can fire in either burst or full auto.  Please stop being brain washed by the media.

 

Technically an AR-15 is an assault rifle if you can select the fire rate.  Though the one the kid was using was just semi-auto.  That's not to say an AR-15 is a high powered gun ...since as rifles go an AR-15 is pretty weak.  A true hunter would never use AR-15 to hunt nor would someone who knows how to hunt humans pick an AR-15.  They would probably pick a 30.06 or a .308 or maybe even a 30-30 first.   That said though, the AR-15 has a very bloody ledger now and is definitely capable of doing the job ...as it has been proven multiple times.

 

I said people walking around (after this tradegy) carrying assault rifles ...or hell, even rifles that look like an Assault Rifle is really, really, really freaking stupid.  It just gives all anti-gun people more ammunition to feed off of.  Thankfully they are yanking those stories off their websites and CNN stopped reporting it.   Those people really need to learn how to lay low and not stir up the media any more.

 

Some things people (like KB) need to realize is war isn't simply about numbers.   Sometimes the smallest attack can cause the biggest panic.   The "DC Sniper" had the whole DC Metro Area under lockdown pretty much.  Many people did not go to work or even to the store to buy groceries.   Before the DC Sniper it didn't matter what time of day you went into the grocery store you were always at least the 5th person in line, and usually farther down than that.   During the DC Sniper days you could walk straight up to the cashier any time, any day of the week.   The amount of people the DC Sniper killed pales in comparison to this kid but he caused panic on a massive scale.  Look at how much 9-11 damaged our pride and then resparked that pride.   It's not always about numbers and terrorists are smart enough to know that.   If you can get inside someone's head you are already fighting to win.   The battlefield isn't what it used to be.  It's not as clean cut as the Revolutionary War was but so many people in America believe if we get invaded it will be just like that.

 

This story is another example how the number of people involved is irrelevant.   This story will make history books.   This story will scar many families for many years.   This story will scar that town for many years.   This story proved places people thought were safe havens from terror are not.   This story proved a domestic enemy can be more effective than a foreign one.   This story proves there are just some things you cannot prepare for.   This story proved yet again we have absolutely no clue how to fix this.

Edited December 20, 2012 by Fogel

[Waco]

Stop reporting on it. That'll remove the motivation for a lot of these killings pretty damn quickly.

[SpeedCrazy]

Fogel, you should probably get a better understanding of the US mental health system before criticizing it. Institutions for dangerous nutjobs still exist today. Yes, we've broken away from the asylum system, but that's for the betterment of 99.99999% of all mentally disabled individuals. People have to first show that they're dangerous before they can be committed. For all we know this person didn't show those signs.

 

For my unpopular opinion:

 

 

Yes it's sad that a bunch of children were killed by a madman. In the grand scheme of thing, more kids die around the world every day from things like malaria, dysentery, and other fun diseases. I'm quite certain more kids die in America every day from other causes. There's no point making a huge deal out of this incident in my opinion. If SpeedCrazy is right, God is responsible for this. Not a surprise given his streak of atrocities in the Bible.

 

 

I'm just going to don my asbestos suit now...

I'm not going to argue with you on that point but please if your going to use my argument to back yours up, USE IT PROPERLY! I did not say God is responsible. I said WE are responsible. Read! And not to deviate even further and start sunday school but if you had actually read the Bible those 'atrocities' would make sense.

/end rant

[Phil]

Supposedly what happened in the '70s is they decided they were going to stop treating many people with mental issues in mental institutions but treat them instead with medicine.  So mental institutions had their funding cut and people with mental issues started to get treated by medicine.   Which I suppose is great if the medicine works and if the people stay on it.   Evidently this whole decision caused a big stir and people forecasted we would see fallout from this decision.   As with anything we always seem to make a radical decision rather than a balanced decision.   Seems to always be one extreme over the over.

 

Swiching treatment modalities was just a convenient excuse for slashing spending on mental health.

[Phil]

Most of the previous post was supposed to be a quote.  Post editing seems not to be working today.

[Skidmarks]

It was a real tragedy. My condolences to all involved.

[wevsspot]

Just to set a couple facts straight;

 

AR style rifles (Like the Bushmaster used in this tragedy) can be purchased or built in many calibers - .223 / .308 / .556x45mm NATO are common calibers - so to claim they aren't high powered is a miss-statement.  Some would argue that any caliber rim fire cartridge is a "high power" round.

 

The adoption of AR style rifles for medium and big game hunting has been on the increase over the past decade - pick up any outdoor / hunting focused publication and you can read about this trend at least twice a year in any given publication.  Many hunters choose AR style rifles because of their durability, reliability, light weight and the wealth of accessories available.  Most AR style rifles have synthetic stocks (lightweight and very weather resistant), are easy to carry and handle well.  Conversely, more traditional rifles (use a Remington 700 bolt action for example) most commonly come with a wood stock, they are heavier and often have longer barrels, making them a little harder to carry through the woods, hoist into a tree stand etc. and rifles like this require meticulous care of the barrel, action and stock to keep them preserved in excellent condition.

 

Adam Lanza DID NOT buy the weapons that he used to murder all of these children and adults with.  He essentially stole them from his mom's gun locker.  There are plenty of reports out now from her friends (and even people who did contracting work around her house) stating that she kept all of her firearms (all legally owned) in a safe place under lock and key.  We will never know for sure, but I suspect that her son retrieved the key or combination after he murdered his mom.

 

While there are still plenty of mental treatment facilities around our nation that offer services, care and even in-patient treatment - almost everyone of them is overflowed past their capacity.  Just search the jail records of your local police department or sheriffs department to get an idea of how many "mentally" ill prisoners are on waiting lists for a transfer to a mental health treatment center.  So if our jails are overflowing with them now, how many of them are out walking around like ticking time bombs?

 

And now for the "non-fact" portion of my post;

 

I'll go on the record to say that I agree with what Huck had to say and those that agreed or gave him +1 here already. Not to inflame anyone, but just to clarify my convictions on the matter.  However, that debate would really need to be split into two different categories.  There is evil, and there is mental illness.  The two are not mutually dependent on one another, and in fact I'd propose that they are exclusive of each other.  A mentally ill person isn't necessarily evil (and in fact in most cases I believe exactly the opposite).  And a person who commits evil acts isn't necessarily mentally ill.  Personally I strongly believe that removing God and the paddle from the principle, coaches or teacher's hand hasn't done our children any favors.  

 

Our country produces evil people because we give them free reign to exist and even encourage them because we don't speak out against things that are wrong and we don't correct errant behavior before it gets past the point of correction.  Forget the argument about God - and put it into the perspective of the human moral compass.  Our ability (or lack thereof) of empathy, compassion and knowing (or not knowing) the difference between right and wrong.  Face it, mankind needs a point of reference when it comes to establishing rules of society and acceptable human behavior in order for our species to co-exist and propagate.  Many folks believe that governments, laws, punishment etc. can remove mankind's ability and even desire to commit atrocities, but it just isn't so folks.  That is where some sort of belief system comes into play - and I'm not talking about religion or advocating one belief system over another.  Most all major belief systems abhor the murder of another human being.  Makes sense to me.  Just like a lot of the other teachings that exist in the various religions of the world, most of them make common sense for "keeping the peace" and preventing us from wiping our species off the planet right?

 

I feel terrible for the families that have lost children, grandchildren, brothers and sisters in this tragedy.  I can't even imagine how the parents and grandparents of these children feel.  Those of you who have kids of your own, or grandkids of your own know that our single greatest fear is the loss of one of those precious kids.  And when I say kids I'm including all of those that were murdered because they were all someone's kids.

 

There isn't anyway to explain what happened, only that it did and it is a tragedy immense and horrific in proportion.

[wevsspot]

One thing I forgot to mention in the "facts" section (I'd edit my original but then it would "double post" the whole thing  

 

Assault Rifles - in the truest sense of the word - are capable of fully automatic fire i.e. squeeze and hold the trigger and they will continue to fire until the magazine and chamber are empty.  Owning a fully automatic weapon is prohibited for the majority of citizens in the US.  So you have two legal types of firearms here; single shot or semi-auto (semi-auto = you have to release and then squeeze the trigger again to fire the next round).

[ohldboy]

No one threw GOD out. Blaming lack of organized faith is an insult to everyone.

Using GOD as a threat/terrorist who allows these things for a lack of worship is pure Bullshit.

Blind faith is a trap, if you had it it you would be Jewish, awaiting the messiah.

[SpeedCrazy]

No one threw GOD out. Blaming lack of organized faith is an insult to everyone.

Using GOD as a threat/terrorist who allows these things for a lack of worship is pure Bullshit.

Blind faith is a trap, if you had it it you would be Jewish, awaiting the messiah.

 

Not physically, but we removed him from government, from school, from public life.

As a nation we have turned away from God, and therefore he will turn away from us.

"Because I called and you refused, I stretched out My hand and no one paid attention and you neglected all My counsel and did not want My reproof, I will even laugh at your calamity. I will mock when your dread comes, when your dread comes like a storm and your calamity comes on like a whirlwind, when distress and anguish come on you, then they will call on Me but I will not answer. They will seek Me diligently but they shall not find Me. Because they hated knowledge and did not choose the fear of the Lord. They would not accept My counsel, they spurned all My reproof. So they shall eat of the fruit of their own way and be satiated with their own devices." Proverbs 1:24-31

We have created a culture that worships sin and depravity so guess what we get? Sin and depravity!

 

I'm not sure i understand your second statement. Who uses God as a terrorist? And he allows these things because we have shunned him, he has no cause to look after us.

And blind faith is irrelevant to the discussion, unless your accusing me of it. In which case your sadly mistaken, my faith has turned my life around, God has worked many miracles in and through my life. I have anything but blind faith, if anything i can see more clearly because of my faith. But lets not start arguing over that too.

[xPETEZx]

No one threw GOD out. Blaming lack of organized faith is an insult to everyone.

Using GOD as a threat/terrorist who allows these things for a lack of worship is pure Bullshit.

Blind faith is a trap, if you had it it you would be Jewish, awaiting the messiah.

+1 

Well said.

Religion/"faith" has no place in government or law making.

 

 

No one threw GOD out. Blaming lack of organized faith is an insult to everyone.

Using GOD as a threat/terrorist who allows these things for a lack of worship is pure Bullshit.

Blind faith is a trap, if you had it it you would be Jewish, awaiting the messiah.

 

Not physically, but we removed him from government, from school, from public life.

As a nation we have turned away from God, and therefore he will turn away from us.

"Because I called and you refused, I stretched out My hand and no one paid attention and you neglected all My counsel and did not want My reproof, I will even laugh at your calamity. I will mock when your dread comes, when your dread comes like a storm and your calamity comes on like a whirlwind, when distress and anguish come on you, then they will call on Me but I will not answer. They will seek Me diligently but they shall not find Me. Because they hated knowledge and did not choose the fear of the Lord. They would not accept My counsel, they spurned all My reproof. So they shall eat of the fruit of their own way and be satiated with their own devices." Proverbs 1:24-31

We have created a culture that worships sin and depravity so guess what we get? Sin and depravity!

 

I'm not sure i understand your second statement. Who uses God as a terrorist? And he allows these things because we have shunned him, he has no cause to look after us.

And blind faith is irrelevant to the discussion, unless your accusing me of it. In which case your sadly mistaken, my faith has turned my life around, God has worked many miracles in and through my life. I have anything but blind faith, if anything i can see more clearly because of my faith. But lets not start arguing over that too.

 

Please.

So during the time that we did not turn away from god things like this didn't happen? There has been horrific acts like this throughout our entire history.

I don't want to get into a religious debate here, as I know how pointless they are, but don't try and pin this on anything to do with god.

[SpeedCrazy]

 

No one threw GOD out. Blaming lack of organized faith is an insult to everyone.

Using GOD as a threat/terrorist who allows these things for a lack of worship is pure Bullshit.

Blind faith is a trap, if you had it it you would be Jewish, awaiting the messiah.

+1 

Well said.

Religion/"faith" has no place in government or law making.

 

 

No one threw GOD out. Blaming lack of organized faith is an insult to everyone.

Using GOD as a threat/terrorist who allows these things for a lack of worship is pure Bullshit.

Blind faith is a trap, if you had it it you would be Jewish, awaiting the messiah.

 

Not physically, but we removed him from government, from school, from public life.

As a nation we have turned away from God, and therefore he will turn away from us.

"Because I called and you refused, I stretched out My hand and no one paid attention and you neglected all My counsel and did not want My reproof, I will even laugh at your calamity. I will mock when your dread comes, when your dread comes like a storm and your calamity comes on like a whirlwind, when distress and anguish come on you, then they will call on Me but I will not answer. They will seek Me diligently but they shall not find Me. Because they hated knowledge and did not choose the fear of the Lord. They would not accept My counsel, they spurned all My reproof. So they shall eat of the fruit of their own way and be satiated with their own devices." Proverbs 1:24-31

We have created a culture that worships sin and depravity so guess what we get? Sin and depravity!

 

I'm not sure i understand your second statement. Who uses God as a terrorist? And he allows these things because we have shunned him, he has no cause to look after us.

And blind faith is irrelevant to the discussion, unless your accusing me of it. In which case your sadly mistaken, my faith has turned my life around, God has worked many miracles in and through my life. I have anything but blind faith, if anything i can see more clearly because of my faith. But lets not start arguing over that too.

 

Please.

So during the time that we did not turn away from god things like this didn't happen? There has been horrific acts like this throughout our entire history.

I don't want to get into a religious debate here, as I know how pointless they are, but don't try and pin this on anything to do with god.

 

I'm not pinning it on God, merely answering ohldboys statements.

By our history i mean American History, as a nation we have been incredibly blessed and i attribute that to our christian heritage. And these horrific acts have increased significantly in the past century or so right alongside the secularization of our nation. I don't want a religious argument either, so lets stick to what people have actually said not drawing arguments out of the air. The truth is 100% of the blame lies with Adam lanza who chose to shoot all those people. Its not the gun's fault, or the governments fault. Nor is it Gods fault, but im not going to develop that in order to avoid the argument neither of us want.