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#1 Fogel

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Posted 11 January 2013 - 02:41 PM

Thought this might be an interesting topic shortly after watching a Penn & Teller show on YouTube.   The episode has a female legislator describing a scary situation.   My friends and I will go over scenarios such as these to complement our training so I thought we could do the same here.   Best case scenario is none of us will ever be in any of these dire situations.   Though if the situation comes up we will probably have a better chance to save our self, loved ones and possibly others.

 

No one has all the solutions.  There is no guarantee that this will keep any of us out of trouble or that we will know exactly what to do if the time comes since even an extremely well trained individual may not react the way they were trained or even a way they always reacted before.  If you don't know how to respond, put the the first thought you have since that is what you feel most comfortable with.  If you ask for help then people can tell you what they like in your reply and areas they would tweak.

 

 

My dad always likened it to getting a house alarm or a gun.  A house alarm will not prevent you from getting robbed, nor will a gun.  But the harder you can make it for someone the less attractive of a target you are and they may move on to someone else.  Not to mention (and more so in the purpose of this thread) you are a bit more prepared and that can only help you out.

 

 

Rules:

  1. Before throwing a new scenario for people to chew on, there has to be at least 24 hours of inactivity of the current scenario.  Or the scenario owner may say their scenario is solved and it’s a first come first serve basis in picking the next scenario.
  2. You can respond to an old scenario if you want, but please label which scenario you are responding to and be respectful of the fact you are answering out of turn.  It might be easier to not let people respond out of turn but I really don’t want to limit the flow of creativity or good ideas because someone might come in late but have some really good ideas to help us all out.
  3. You don’t have to know the answer to the scenario.  Most of the time when my friends and I bring this stuff up, we do it because we don’t know the answer and we want feedback from each other.  Then once your friends chime in you usually open up.  So if you got a scary thought in your head and you don’t know how to respond, THIS IS EXACTLY THE TIME TO BRING THAT STUFF UP.
  4. Not all scenarios have to be big.  Say you want to know what to do if you start a grease fire and you don’t have a B rated fire extinguisher handy.  Say you’re a warm weather driver who has never driven on an icy road, you lose traction and want to know what to do.   Bring this stuff up.  Though I will say that if you are satisfied with the response(s) you got please say you feel your scenario is solved so a new scenario can be started.  If someone has some advice they think will benefit you they can still post it. :)
  5. Be respectful of other people’s replies, but its ok to respond to another reply as long as it is constructive criticism.  If it becomes a war of egos, this is the first rule to get revoked.

 

 

Scenario 01 – Active Shooter at Restaurant

 

You are sitting in restaurant with loved (family, SO, whomever you love more) one(s).  They have no combat training.  A gunman walks in but doesn’t reveal himself until he has view of the seating area.  He open fires on someone taking them out without a single word said.

 

Look at the attached picture.  How would you react given the three areas of seating?  (Labeled A, B,and C)  You have no weapon on you, aside from a pocket knife. 

 

Attached File  Scenario1.jpg   17.51KB   28 downloads

 

 

  • Tables have long table cloths
  • Position A would be able to see more but to keep it simple, all you can see is the Gunman is wielding two pistols
  • Re-think the scenario if you had Conceal Carry.  Only you know your skill and confidence level with a gun, so how would you respond if you had a gun on you?   Think of the positions you are in and what the gunman has a line of sight with, which could easily affect his actions especially if you are perceived as an immediate threat.

 

Probably not a good time to start this thread since it is Friday and participation is usually pretty low on Fri-Sun, but we will see how it goes.  Probably won't be able to respond until Monday myself, but what the heck... let's give it a try. 



#2 EuroFight

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Posted 11 January 2013 - 03:16 PM

Great idea for a thread, I like it, I can see myself spending a lot of time here  :whistling:

 

At place A, I would immediately get under the table and pull whoever I was with down with me. Hopefully that would protect us for a short time. If the gunman went away (not unlikely), we would be fine, however if the gunman continued firing at the people in the restaurant, I would probably look to get behind the fireplace, then exploit that position to get to the kitchen, and look for a back exit.

 

At place B, I would probably hug the inside of the fireplace and move to avoid being seen, then when the gunman moved behind the other side of the fireplace, make a run behind the counter and then get out the door.

 

At place C, I would run into the washrooms and try to sit the gunfight out, if needs be I guess I would use the knife, although I would not take pleasure in anything I had to do, but in the end, if it's me or them, I'd do my best to make sure it was them.


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#3 Fogel

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Posted 11 January 2013 - 03:44 PM

Position A is where I am stuck on.  It is by far the worst spot to be in.  If the gunman was smart that is probably where he would start off and either let the hostess run away or go for them second and then turn back to the room.  You are the first person he sees, the one in closest in range to him and his weapons are already drawn.

 

I can't even think of a good sacrifice scenario to protect a love one.  That location is another reason why I thought to start this thread ...because I wanted to see if anyone had a good solution for that spot.  I felt bad about putting that location in this scenario so I decided to be kind and put a fireplace in the middle of the room even though that is pretty uncommon.  Though enough restaurants have sections that I figured it wasn't unrealistic.



#4 EuroFight

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Posted 11 January 2013 - 04:16 PM

That is true, in that situation I assumed whoever was shot was on another table, so the best thing to do is get under cover quickly

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#5 Onion

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Posted 11 January 2013 - 05:20 PM

Pretend to be Bullseye from Daredevil and nail him right in the forehead with the pocketknife? Works for all three scenarios. 

 

Position B: Prone under a table with the cloth concealing you, have your head and arms stick out from under the tablecloth, wait for the gunman to walk into your line of sight, then fire at him. 

 

Position C: Stealthily squat/crouch walk across the waitress area waiting for the gunman the walk past it. Once he does, pounce with a pocketknife to the carotid in the neck. 


Edited by Onion, 11 January 2013 - 05:24 PM.

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#6 Deathmineral

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Posted 11 January 2013 - 11:39 PM

Interesting thread, I'm a little confused on the scenario though. If the gunman doesn't open fire until reaching the seating area, wouldn't A be the first target? Or is the gunman shooting the hostess first?

 

Well, I'll play them out under the assumption that the hostess is the first target I guess.

 

A: I would think my best bet would be to tackle the gunman, or at least attempt to. If I can change the scenario just a bit here, considering a knife, I personally carry a fixed blade in sheath rather than a pocket knife, so I would try to attack with that if I have it, probably worth mentioning that it would be noticeable so the gunman would make me into a target before anyone I think. If I had a concealed gun, I would try to draw and shoot but I can't imagine I would be too successful. I honestly can't see myself trying to run or hide, rather I can't see myself as having an opportunity at either of those options. It's definitely a tough position.

 

B: I would probably immediately go for the kitchen, I can't say I'm confident it would work out, I would assume the gunman is aiming for threats first and runners second so I wouldn't necessarily be low on the priority list. With a knife available, I would try ducking behind the fireplace hoping I wasn't seen and wait for the gunman to get close and try to attack them. With a gun, I would try using the fireplace as cover and attempt to shoot the shooter, though I will most likely hesitate a little, given that the gunman would likely have taken out some of the people between him and myself, I think it would be mostly clear of other people.

 

C: Hide inside what I'm guessing is the waitress area? Not sure, they look like booth seating but they have "W" so I assume they're some kind of waitress areas. With Knife, again hide and just wait for him to approach, this seems like it would be a difficult spot though since he's completely focused on a particular waitress area at a time. With gun, probably hide and wait for him to approach, unless I want to pull some funky Matrix floor slide towards the front, I can't imagine having a clear shot. 

 

In each scenario I would pull any loved ones into any chosen hiding spot. Except for position A, I don't think there's much I could do for them other than attempt to attack the gunman to buy them a little time or save them if successful.

 

Oh, I just figured out what the "W" stands for, I guess it's window. This obviously widens the options with C in particular but there's far too many variables that are unknown to say if I would interact with the window or not, window thickness, solid one piece glass or a wooden frame with multiple small windows, size of window, what's outside the window, whether it's ground level or higher on a building, etc.


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#7 IVIYTH0S

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Posted 12 January 2013 - 02:33 AM

In this thread, Fogel plans the perfect shootout :lol: (I may participate)


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#8 Fogel

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Posted 14 January 2013 - 09:06 AM

Interesting thread, I'm a little confused on the scenario though. If the gunman doesn't open fire until reaching the seating area, wouldn't A be the first target? Or is the gunman shooting the hostess first?

 

Oh, I just figured out what the "W" stands for, I guess it's window.

 

Yes and yes.  Like I said in my second post, the gunman would probably go for Position A first.   Without spilling out all the specifics I decided to just say he takes someone out.  The scenario I was envisioning was that most restaurants have more than one hostess, so in this scenario he takes out the one leading him to a table.

 

In this thread, Fogel plans the perfect shootout :lol: (I may participate)

 

Please, you should totally do it if you have any interest level.   This thread isn't about finding out the best survivalist.   Its about throwing out ideas and seeing what works then building upon that and weeding out what doesn't work.  I figured if we could get some solid participation a free flowing conversation might form where we could take what we like and then discuss reactions we feel are too dangerous.

 

We have some members on the forum that are obviously worried this stuff (see Gun Control thread) so why not go over this stuff?  That is why this scenario has you respond without a gun and with a gun.  But this thread isn't limited to these types of scenarios either (see first post if anyone has any questions on what is an ok scenario to use).



#9 Deathmineral

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Posted 14 January 2013 - 09:30 AM

Might not be a bad idea to read up on tips for how to deal with stuff like this, a favorite article of mine has some pretty good advice that relates to this a little bit but not fully. Dealing with violent confrontations is mostly about, well what it sounds like, when you give someone a funny look at the bar and they want to fight you or stuff like that. It does mention some good points that would relate to this though, for example, whenever you go to a restaurant, you want to position yourself to be able to see the entrance at all times. The way they say that in the article is a bit more extreme, as most survivalist minded people can be, but still something to consider when you do eat out. I personally try to do that but you can't always do that and I think that's fine too.


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#10 bishop245

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Posted 14 January 2013 - 10:02 AM

for all three positions it would be pull my 4 knives out as quickly as possible stand up throw first knife move throw second knife move attack hand to hand with a knife in each hand



#11 Onion

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Posted 15 January 2013 - 05:12 AM

for all three positions it would be pull my 4 knives out as quickly as possible stand up throw first knife move throw second knife move attack hand to hand with a knife in each hand

What the hell do you carry that's balanced enough to throw properly? :lol:


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#12 Deathmineral

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Posted 15 January 2013 - 08:16 AM

 

for all three positions it would be pull my 4 knives out as quickly as possible stand up throw first knife move throw second knife move attack hand to hand with a knife in each hand

What the hell do you carry that's balanced enough to throw properly? :lol:

 

:withstupid:

 

I'd also be interested in knowing what you carry, I've never known anyone to carry throwing knives.


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